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Post by Orac on Jul 11, 2024 8:23:48 GMT
That's because they have been defeated in war after war after war - starting with the defeat of the Ottoman empire. However, they still think a solution to their situation is to find a way to declare war again. I don't want to be too broad and judgmental, but these people come across as incompetent idiots Any more broad brush racism you're going to post today? Defeated multiple times, but still refusing any settlement that will let them peacefully build a future and still electing to conduct a war. They must be geniuses |
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Steve
Hero Protagonist
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Post by Steve on Jul 11, 2024 8:43:55 GMT
It was Israel that tore up the Oslo Accords 2 state settlement. It is Israel that has long decided the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza are to be denied basic human rights.
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Post by Orac on Jul 11, 2024 9:03:08 GMT
It is Israel that has long decided the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza are to be denied basic human rights. Utter cobblers. They keep effectively declaring an unwinnable war on a neighbor and thereby damning themselves to living in a shit-hole with no human rights If they could stop firing rockets and performing Jew turnings for a decade or so, they would give themselves space to build their situation and Israel would be cornered diplomatically.. The fact that they refuse this obvious route is a testament to how hard they have their heads up their rectums. |
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Jul 11, 2024 9:11:41 GMT
You're still pretending every Palestinian is a Hamas supporter. Despite all the proof that it's very much not like that.
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Post by RedRum on Jul 11, 2024 12:25:49 GMT
The Palestinians are not 'allowed' to have armed forces and have had to resort to terrorism. They cannot, given their denial of an official armed section, confront Israel on a level field. That's because they have been defeated in war after war after war - starting with the defeat of the Ottoman empire. However, they still think a solution to their situation is to find a way to declare war again. I don't want to be too broad and judgmental, but these people come across as incompetent idiots It is an opinion expressed by many that the Palestinians have not declared war on Israel but are rather in a struggle for their freedom from a colonial occupying power. We in this country would, I believe, do the same and indeed it was the late, great Winston Churchill that drew up plans to resist a Nazi occupation if the need arose, thank God it did not. |
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Post by Orac on Jul 11, 2024 12:34:03 GMT
You're still pretending every Palestinian is a Hamas supporter. Despite all the proof that it's very much not like that. No. I think it is rather you who are pretending. Their basic social form is 'at war with Israel' - you don't have large public celebrations of Jew burning raiding parties and complete failure to attempt arrest the culprits, unless you are essentially at war. If they were sensible, they would organised to oust Hamas and set up a responsible government that enforced something akin to civilised law - and if they did so, Israel would be cornered into handling them differently. As it stands, they are gigantic pile of political pooh and are paying the price and seem determined to keep paying. People have responsible government precisely to avoid being in a state of permanent war with rivals |
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Jul 11, 2024 16:33:21 GMT
You're still pretending every Palestinian is a Hamas supporter. Despite all the proof that it's very much not like that. No. I think it is rather you who are pretending. Their basic social form is 'at war with Israel' - you don't have large public celebrations of Jew burning raiding parties and complete failure to attempt arrest the culprits, unless you are essentially at war. If they were sensible, they would organised to oust Hamas and set up a responsible government that enforced something akin to civilised law - and if they did so, Israel would be cornered into handling them differently. As it stands, they are gigantic pile of political pooh and are paying the price and seem determined to keep paying. People have responsible government precisely to avoid being in a state of permanent war with rivals Or alternatively you're just using the 'they' word in lazy broadbrushing or worse just like labelling all of an ethnicity. Hamas are utterly evil and have a track record of killing any local dissenters and using threats to get Gazans to appear to be cheering them etc. Like it or not the overwhelming bulk of the hostages in Gaza are the Gazans. |
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Post by Orac on Jul 11, 2024 17:49:06 GMT
No. I think it is rather you who are pretending. Their basic social form is 'at war with Israel' - you don't have large public celebrations of Jew burning raiding parties and complete failure to attempt arrest the culprits, unless you are essentially at war. If they were sensible, they would organised to oust Hamas and set up a responsible government that enforced something akin to civilised law - and if they did so, Israel would be cornered into handling them differently. As it stands, they are gigantic pile of political pooh and are paying the price and seem determined to keep paying. People have responsible government precisely to avoid being in a state of permanent war with rivals Or alternatively you're just using the 'they' word in lazy broadbrushing or worse just like labelling all of an ethnicity. I tried to explain that when it comes to conflicts between groups, there is no practical alternative to dealing with groups. The other side is not going to commit suicide because you refuse to be 'called a group'. This is one reason nations form. The balestinians refuse to play ball with a responsible group representation - and this is what happens - chaos |
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Jul 11, 2024 20:50:52 GMT
So you appear to be saying that if Israel were to stop recklessly and illegally killing civilians in some all Palestinians are Hamas evil delusion and instead concentrate on focussed military action then it would be committing suicide.
Well if so you are wrong. Israel's actions since Oct 7th have pathetically ineffective at disabling Hamas and instead mobilised world wide disgust at how Israel's leadership operates while in no small way being a recruiting sergeant for jihadist terrorism.
You don't win asymmetric wars by doing exactly what your actual enemy wants you to do.
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Post by Orac on Jul 11, 2024 21:08:14 GMT
So you appear to be saying that if Israel were to stop recklessly and illegally killing civilians in some all Palestinians are Hamas evil delusion and instead concentrate on focussed military action then it would be committing suicide. There is a fair amount of hyperbole there - but in essence, yes. If Israel accepts that its 'right to respond' is trumped by the risk of civilian deaths, then they are effectively abandoning the right to respond - ie the tactic wins. |
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Jul 11, 2024 21:16:45 GMT
No hyperbole by me. International law is clear: no disproportionate killing of civilians and we know Israel has killed ~30,000 civilians while just this week having to admit it needs to further raze Gaza City to the ground because Hamas is still an effective force there. After 9 months.
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Post by RedRum on Jul 12, 2024 7:35:17 GMT
Hamas will still exist long after Netanyahu has been imprisoned.
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Jul 12, 2024 10:00:31 GMT
Hamas will still exist long after Netanyahu has been imprisoned. Probably. Hamas is as much an idea as an organised terrorist group. |
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Post by Orac on Jul 12, 2024 10:41:43 GMT
No hyperbole by me. International law is clear: no disproportionate killing of civilians ..and so we are back to the word / concept 'proportionate' |
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Jul 12, 2024 11:03:50 GMT
No hyperbole by me. International law is clear: no disproportionate killing of civilians ..and so we are back to the word / concept 'proportionate' And there are rules and precedents on such. That Israel clearly ignores. Happy reading guide-humanitarian-law.org/content/article/3/attacks/Just one example from there: 'This last prohibition introduces the twofold notion of “proportionality” that must be respected: (1) Any attack must be proportionate to the threat that is faced, and any retaliation must be proportionate to the attack suffered. (2) Incidental civilian casualties or damages must be proportionate to the direct and concrete military advantages expected (API, arts. 51(5)(b), 57(2)(a)(ii) and (b)). If this proportionality requirement is not met, IHL considers the attack to be indiscriminate. The requirement to calculate the proportionality of attacks has become a rule of CIHL, applicable in both international and non-international armed conflicts (CIHL Rule 14). It is also part of international criminal law (art. 8(2)(b)(iv) of the Rome Statute).' |
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