|
|
Post by Zany on Mar 25, 2024 17:26:47 GMT
The Gaza is squeezed as more and more Arabs are forced out of the West Bank, which you failed to mention. Further Gaza is under Israeli law which is not freedom or democracy. Now you are arm waving and expanding - adding further dimensions. The same basic principle applies - if they stay on their side of an agreed fence, Israel has no rationale.to do anything. The Palestinians need to face up to the dilemma - either they are at war, in which case just about any action Israel takes can be justified, or they pursuing a stable boundary, in which case they can't launch rocket attacks and hold government sanctioned Jew barbecues. Choose A or B - having both wont work. They are very real dimensions, you are trying to make it two dimensional when it clearly isn't. The agreed side of the fence? when the whole world berates Israel for its illegal expansionism. Thousands of Palestinians driven off their land beaten by the Israeli police they went to for help. They all end up in Gaza, telling their stories of brutality and injustice. So they are sympathetic to Hamas, just as you would be in the same circumstances. But Israel doesn't want a two state deal, they want Palestine gone. |
|
|
|
Post by Orac on Mar 25, 2024 21:29:37 GMT
Now you are arm waving and expanding - adding further dimensions. The same basic principle applies - if they stay on their side of an agreed fence, Israel has no rationale.to do anything. The Palestinians need to face up to the dilemma - either they are at war, in which case just about any action Israel takes can be justified, or they pursuing a stable boundary, in which case they can't launch rocket attacks and hold government sanctioned Jew barbecues. Choose A or B - having both wont work. They are very real dimensions, you are trying to make it two dimensional when it clearly isn't. The agreed side of the fence? when the whole world berates Israel for its illegal expansionism. Thousands of Palestinians driven off their land beaten by the Israeli police they went to for help. They all end up in Gaza, telling their stories of brutality and injustice. So they are sympathetic to Hamas, just as you would be in the same circumstances. But Israel doesn't want a two state deal, they want Palestine gone. You miss my point - if they pursue a fence, Israel has no reliable means to stop them. The reason Israel can justify bombing raids over the fence, is that these imbeciles simply wont accept that such means they can't launch rocket attacks and keep the fence..Save your sympathy - they have a choice and they choose war again and again. Okay - war it is and in a war the other guy gets to hit you. |
|
|
|
Post by vinny on Mar 26, 2024 14:50:40 GMT
Agree, a constant barrage of rocket attacks and other atrocities committed on Israel has hardened the Israeli people to the point they are prepared to vote for ever more radical right wing governments. A pox on both houses but that does not mean that either side should be ethnically cleansed. Netanyahu got in with less than 25 percent of the vote, he is clinging on by the skin of his teeth. |
|
|
|
Post by montegriffo on Mar 26, 2024 14:53:29 GMT
Agree, a constant barrage of rocket attacks and other atrocities committed on Israel has hardened the Israeli people to the point they are prepared to vote for ever more radical right wing governments. A pox on both houses but that does not mean that either side should be ethnically cleansed. Netanyahu got in with less than 25 percent of the vote, he is clinging on by the skin of his teeth. As low as that? It may be higher now though. The Falklands effect. Thatcher had some of the lowest approval ratings of the 20th century before she went all Rambo. |
|
|
|
Post by vinny on Mar 27, 2024 11:14:07 GMT
They are very real dimensions, you are trying to make it two dimensional when it clearly isn't. The agreed side of the fence? when the whole world berates Israel for its illegal expansionism. Thousands of Palestinians driven off their land beaten by the Israeli police they went to for help. They all end up in Gaza, telling their stories of brutality and injustice. So they are sympathetic to Hamas, just as you would be in the same circumstances. But Israel doesn't want a two state deal, they want Palestine gone. You miss my point - if they pursue a fence, Israel has no reliable means to stop them. The reason Israel can justify bombing raids over the fence, is that these imbeciles simply wont accept that such means they can't launch rocket attacks and keep the fence..Save your sympathy - they have a choice and they choose war again and again. Okay - war it is and in a war the other guy gets to hit you. With an ARMED UN peacekeeping force, (lets call it UNOPAL) there would be no need for IDF military responses. Armed UN peacekeepers would at a stroke disarm Hamas and demilitarise the border ordering the IDF to withdraw from Gaza and the West Bank and removing illegal settlers. Any act of aggression from Hamas would be an act of war against the UN. Any act of aggression from the IDF would be an act of war against the UN. Neither side would be able to win against such a force. Hold a majority vote at the UN on a peacekeeping force and make sure there can be no vetoes. |
|
|
|
Post by montegriffo on Mar 27, 2024 11:22:32 GMT
The UN have finally passed a resolution calling for a ceasefire, yesterday I think.
Israel is not happy, or should I say Netanyahu isn't. I'm sure there are plenty of Israelis who are in opposition to this war.
|
|
|
|
Post by Orac on Mar 27, 2024 12:16:56 GMT
You miss my point - if they pursue a fence, Israel has no reliable means to stop them. The reason Israel can justify bombing raids over the fence, is that these imbeciles simply wont accept that such means they can't launch rocket attacks and keep the fence..Save your sympathy - they have a choice and they choose war again and again. Okay - war it is and in a war the other guy gets to hit you. Any act of aggression from Hamas would be an act of war against the UN. The UN has no sanction it can apply against a group like Hamas. Ergo - Hamas will continue to strike Israel and the UN will just stand there. If you disagree, tell me what the UN will do to defeat Hamas should they continue as they have |
|
|
|
Post by vinny on Mar 27, 2024 12:23:16 GMT
UN Peacekeepers with guns can open fire on Hamas.
|
|
|
|
Post by montegriffo on Mar 27, 2024 13:03:27 GMT
UN Peacekeepers with guns can open fire on Hamas. They weren't particularly effective in Bosnia. That's not to say I don't support your idea but the UN has been reluctant to open fire in past peacekeeping missions. |
|
|
|
Post by Orac on Mar 27, 2024 14:17:20 GMT
UN Peacekeepers with guns can open fire on Hamas. That';s vague stuff. let's try a scenario. Hamas launch 100s of rockets from various locations in Gaza city. Is the UN going to go in with infantry and armored vehicles to chase the perpetrators down? Will there be airstrikes around civilian locations? - or will they just 'leave it'? |
|
|
|
Post by Zany on Mar 27, 2024 15:20:24 GMT
UN Peacekeepers with guns can open fire on Hamas. They weren't particularly effective in Bosnia. That's not to say I don't support your idea but the UN has been reluctant to open fire in past peacekeeping missions. Bosnia was a very low point for the UN peacekeeping force. Would the fight against ISIS be a better comparison. |
|
|
|
Post by montegriffo on Mar 28, 2024 12:45:56 GMT
Definitely not genocide...
|
|
|
|
Post by delphicoracle on Mar 28, 2024 16:17:54 GMT
One problem is that Israel diesnt accept borders. They deliberately left ouyt descriptive borders in their 1948 D of I so that they could walk into the borderless Palestine without breaking International law. And Israel knows that if Palestine becomes a state, it will have defined borders and crossing them is an international attack.
This chant "from the river to the sea" was originally an Isreali expression of their vision for Israel. It doesnt make sense to be a Palestinian assertion.
I have thought that the UN should impose a DMZ like they did in Korea. Then, borders are enforced and result in 2 states.
|
|
|
|
Post by Orac on Mar 28, 2024 17:59:25 GMT
The real problem is that there is no accountability for the actions of Palestinians and they resist taking onboard any such accountability
|
|
|
|
Post by Zany on Mar 28, 2024 20:03:25 GMT
One problem is that Israel diesnt accept borders. They deliberately left ouyt descriptive borders in their 1948 D of I so that they could walk into the borderless Palestine without breaking International law. And Israel knows that if Palestine becomes a state, it will have defined borders and crossing them is an international attack. This chant "from the river to the sea" was originally an Isreali expression of their vision for Israel. It doesnt make sense to be a Palestinian assertion. I have thought that the UN should impose a DMZ like they did in Korea. Then, borders are enforced and result in 2 states. Welcome to the forum delphicoracle. What an inciteful post, I didn't know from the river to the sea was originally Israeli, but it makes sense. Israel is an arrogant nation just look how they treat the Jordan as their own. |
|
