Steve
Hero Protagonist
Posts: 2,597
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Post by Steve on Aug 16, 2024 8:01:43 GMT
But England does not rule over them, its a union. The Scots recently had a vote and the majority said they wanted the union to remain. Had they of said they wanted to leave, they would have left. There is no ruling over by England. Certainly not in the way the Scots Nats would like you to believe. England doesn't rule over them? Seriously? You actually believe their devolved governments have as much power as central govt in Westminster? It's not even worth arguing about, but you are entitled to your opinion. The Scot indy ref, like the Brexit ref, while the result should be respected just like the USA election result should be respected etc etc - was heavily cheated by the Nats and there's documented proof of that, so it wasn't clean - so using your Remain logic - the referendum should be rerun anyway. And that's your logic not mine, but I'm in favour of a new ref anyway because a new referendum every generation is more than fair, so that's my logic for it. That's fair logic ALSO using your remainer logic, you can't argue that Argue this: www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-35351396Last time I looked the UK Parliament that rules over Scotland in some areas was a UK Parliament with MPs from all over the UK, not an English one.
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borgr0
Observer
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Posts: 1,188
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Post by borgr0 on Aug 16, 2024 8:05:10 GMT
With English govts ruled by people from London and the Home Counties overwhelmingly deciding issues across all nations that make up the 'yookay', but naturally Brit Nats always insist that Westminster is representative
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Post by Amadan on Aug 16, 2024 8:13:05 GMT
Where do I talk down England? I'm pointing out certain English attitudes are indefensible, which they are. And I'm not going to refer to the 'UK' (as much as I can avoid doing it according to my reflexive impulses at least) henceforth because I don't believe there should be a "UK" There should be nations with independence and prosperity - Ireland, England, Scotland and possibly Wales if they want their own indy. Why should England rule over everyone just because our ancient rulers decided imperialism was for the best? But England does not rule over them, its a union. The Scots recently had a vote and the majority said they wanted the union to remain. Had they of said they wanted to leave, they would have left. There is no ruling over by England. Certainly not in the way the Scots Nats would like you to believe. hang on though zany , elsewhere , you were telling me not to bring up ancient history , yet here , you talk about a union , the treaty of which we are supposed to respect which originates in the early 18th century , and a referendum ten years old now. Scotland didnt vote to remain in the uk....it voted in 2014 to remain in the uk that was in the EU just to jog your memory. Further , democracy is a neverendum. If the tories had said to you as a new Labour supporter in 2010 , that it we have won , no more elections what would you do? Treat it with the contempt it deserves and carry on. So why is it you wish to bring up history , from ten years ago now it suits , and imply that result has to stand for the foreseeable future? England does rule over the uk. You have 85% of seats in a de facto English parliament .If this was a true union of equals , scotland ireland and Wales would have been respected and treated as partners , not colonies to do with as you please. If we aren't free to leave , the clearly its not a union , its a British prison.
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Steve
Hero Protagonist
Posts: 2,597
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Post by Steve on Aug 16, 2024 8:13:58 GMT
With English govts ruled by people from London and the Home Counties overwhelmingly deciding issues across all nations that make up the 'yookay', but naturally Brit Nats always insist that Westminster is representative How awkward for you that we have had Scottish Prime Ministers of the UK
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borgr0
Observer
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Posts: 1,188
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Post by borgr0 on Aug 16, 2024 8:20:35 GMT
With English govts ruled by people from London and the Home Counties overwhelmingly deciding issues across all nations that make up the 'yookay', but naturally Brit Nats always insist that Westminster is representative How awkward for you that we have had Scottish Prime Ministers of the UK Of course. Silly me. Andrew Bonar Law and Ramsay MacDonald were truly representative during their time when the British Empire existed and Scots were treated completely justly. Hilariously, it turns out Gordon Brown actually campaigned for Yes For Scotland in the 1979 referendum
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Steve
Hero Protagonist
Posts: 2,597
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Post by Steve on Aug 16, 2024 8:24:47 GMT
Blair was born in Scotland
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Post by Amadan on Aug 16, 2024 8:26:52 GMT
England doesn't rule over them? Seriously? You actually believe their devolved governments have as much power as central govt in Westminster? It's not even worth arguing about, but you are entitled to your opinion. The Scot indy ref, like the Brexit ref, while the result should be respected just like the USA election result should be respected etc etc - was heavily cheated by the Nats and there's documented proof of that, so it wasn't clean - so using your Remain logic - the referendum should be rerun anyway. And that's your logic not mine, but I'm in favour of a new ref anyway because a new referendum every generation is more than fair, so that's my logic for it. That's fair logic ALSO using your remainer logic, you can't argue that Argue this: www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-35351396Last time I looked the UK Parliament that rules over Scotland in some areas was a UK Parliament with MPs from all over the UK, not an English one. Its a de facto English parliament , and always has been., To paraphrase under secretary cooke , writing to the then English prime minister William Pitt in 1799 ... "by giving the irish Scottish and welsh a minority of members in an assembly of 650 , they will be impotent to operate in that assembly , but it will be invested with Celtic assent to its authority." From memory the irish electorate alone ,was almost as big as the English , in 1801 , under the system they then used , but England still retained something like 74% of the seats in the de facto English parliament.
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Post by Amadan on Aug 16, 2024 8:28:03 GMT
Blair was born in Scotland if you are born in a stable it doesn't make you a horse. He represented an English constituency. We didnt vote him in . Wasnt johnson born in New York? was he an American prime minister?
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Post by Amadan on Aug 16, 2024 8:29:50 GMT
With English govts ruled by people from London and the Home Counties overwhelmingly deciding issues across all nations that make up the 'yookay', but naturally Brit Nats always insist that Westminster is representative How awkward for you that we have had Scottish Prime Ministers of the UK Why are you yet again telling people what their nationality is? Gordon brown for example sees himself in terms of national ID as British , as did blair.
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borgr0
Observer
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Posts: 1,188
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Post by borgr0 on Aug 16, 2024 8:32:01 GMT
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Post by Amadan on Aug 16, 2024 8:35:16 GMT
England doesn't rule over them? Seriously? You actually believe their devolved governments have as much power as central govt in Westminster? It's not even worth arguing about, but you are entitled to your opinion. The Scot indy ref, like the Brexit ref, while the result should be respected just like the USA election result should be respected etc etc - was heavily cheated by the Nats and there's documented proof of that, so it wasn't clean - so using your Remain logic - the referendum should be rerun anyway. And that's your logic not mine, but I'm in favour of a new ref anyway because a new referendum every generation is more than fair, so that's my logic for it. That's fair logic ALSO using your remainer logic, you can't argue that Argue this: www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-35351396Last time I looked the UK Parliament that rules over Scotland in some areas was a UK Parliament with MPs from all over the UK, not an English one. we are always told scotland and Wales cant stand on their own two feet without mother England ( unlike the irish republic ?) but as we have seen , by need ing Scottish electricity and resources , welsh water , while hiding behind an English dominated parliament , clearly we can see who cant stand on their own two feet. Even our vote to stay in the EU was completely disrespected . I think the EU parliament , whatever its faults , is far more welcoming and democratic than the de facto English parliament.
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borgr0
Observer
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Posts: 1,188
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Post by borgr0 on Aug 16, 2024 8:38:21 GMT
The long history of the English controlling others and telling them its in their own best interest is hopefully soon ending, IMHO
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Post by Amadan on Aug 16, 2024 8:43:53 GMT
you have to laugh Borg , how Steve tells us about Scottish prime ministers , or vinny tells us how his great grandad has a whiskey in a pub in Glasgow 100 years ago as though this means something to the majority of Scots. This is all right out of the book of imperialism. Russians have done the same regarding Ukraine . the jocks and Ukrainians have to shut up and accept their lot as jocks and Ukrainians have been loyal servants to both the English and Russian empires over the years. the mental gymnastics these people do is fucking laughable.
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Post by Amadan on Aug 16, 2024 8:47:51 GMT
The long history of the English controlling others and telling them its in their own best interest is hopefully soon ending, IMHO hopefully , perhaps in Northern Ireland if the Americans give pressure of respecting a border poll , but not in scotland with the snp in charge , but thats another story. I just cant understand why Englishmen dont want to stand on their own two feet , and continue to be subsidy junkies ? The uk is doomed , like all empires. Eventually its either going to break apart , of be swallowed whole by a greater Europe. a relic of a bygone era. Starmers austerity mark two should help things along im thinking. Another sticking plaster put in place to hold together a fast declining uk . the Labour Party aka red tories.
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borgr0
Observer
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Posts: 1,188
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Post by borgr0 on Aug 16, 2024 8:51:03 GMT
They're telling me that everything Starmer is doing is great, as the media (both left and right) rips him apart daily. The Guardian says he's even more dishonest than Boris Johnson but apparently that's me just scaremongering or something.
I mean both the centrists, left and right think Starmer is no good. Even Cruddas, Hodge and other arch Blairites think Starmer's a dictator. What more do you want other than their own Blairites? They're saying it
Yes I hope the border poll is pushed by Americans, Biden to his credit was on Ireland's side against England which was good. Dunno if Kamala will care as much sadly.
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