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Post by Amadan on Aug 14, 2024 7:44:35 GMT
It must be said, I'm not sure I even feel that safe going back to the UK, after all it's not like I'm white and Hastings can be fairly racist at the best of times. There are racial riots and now all this police state nonsense to top it off, so the worst of both worlds combined together - the worst of both the far-right and left engaging in utmost stupidity I'd feel a lot safer in Stoke Newington in London, where I am from originally but the rest of the UK is nothing like that. The UK seems so utterly knackered at the moment - the idea that Keir Starmer is going to fix things is just laughable I'm afraid Maybe America really is a safer bet than the UK the way things are going - and I never thought I'd say that point out as well Borg , regarding race riots , and their causes , the total non white population of England is 19%. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_England#Ethnicity Thats 0.3% less than Glasgow , our biggest city in scotland. We haven't had race riots , people in Glasgow turn out to stop England deporting our asylum seekers . Im often lectured on these forums by people like vinny on how im British. Vinny though doesn't know what britishness actually is. To him , nationality ( which is a mindset) is a bit of paper called a travel document which tells him he is a British citizen. ...but British citizenship isnt an old entity spanning three centuries. It only dates back to 1981. prior to that , as people like John of gwent have mentioned numerous times , if you were born in Glasgow in 1959 , you were a citizen of the United Kingdom and colonies. Born in swahililand in 1960? you were a citizen of the united kingdom and colonies. www.newstatesman.com/politics/the-staggers/2017/05/freedom-movement-didnt-start-eu-its-norm-britain Freedom of movement didn’t start with the EU – it’s the norm for Britain Britain has only had full controls on immigration for one 11-year period. There's a reason.
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Post by AvonCalling on Aug 14, 2024 10:20:29 GMT
So Trolly Troll McTrollFace ( ). Generally I think the response in this thread has been quite balanced and people have stated that despite the right wing nature of the protestors (and I agree that is my experience of how the media has reported it) there is an geniune issue regarding immigration and it's unwanted affect on the country (and for me it's about the volume of immigration not immigration per se). Most seem to see the protesters as violent rioters and nothing else and haven't commented on the peaceful nature of any of the protests at all. that's been completely ignored I haven't come across any reports of peaceful protests. What were these peaceful protests about and where did they occur please?
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borgr0
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Post by borgr0 on Aug 14, 2024 23:20:18 GMT
It must be said, I'm not sure I even feel that safe going back to the UK, after all it's not like I'm white and Hastings can be fairly racist at the best of times. There are racial riots and now all this police state nonsense to top it off, so the worst of both worlds combined together - the worst of both the far-right and left engaging in utmost stupidity I'd feel a lot safer in Stoke Newington in London, where I am from originally but the rest of the UK is nothing like that. The UK seems so utterly knackered at the moment - the idea that Keir Starmer is going to fix things is just laughable I'm afraid Maybe America really is a safer bet than the UK the way things are going - and I never thought I'd say that first of all I think it sad you feel that way about the "uk" and coming back. Let's be clear here , first and foremost , the race riots have been taking place in England primarily , and a few in Northern Ireland. Not the uk. Both England and Northern Ireland have the two lowest levels of migrants per capita in the uk nations. I think there are many issues that set these riots off. Im unconvinced they are primarily down to pure racism . Im unconvinced hordes of far right are lurking in the background pulling strings. All nations have the right to stop , control restrict or flood their country with migrants. Its the rhetoric by the mainstream media, the hiding of the identity of the black guy who killed they weee lassies and the silence over motive , leading to more speculation , as well as the hardships being faced by people in England and a whole host of reasons that will probably take weeks to delve into . I fully agree with you over starmer though. Labour are a large part of the uk problems , rather than the solution to those problems. Starmer is merely tasked with two things , manage decline , and continue to try and present the illusion of the uks power , especially to the plebs. All true, I'd add that the right-wing media and misinfo from America also helped whip this up - and right wing politicians funded by billionaires as well, monbiot did well to point this out It also feels prudent to point out that years of brainwashing by being raised in England means I do refer to England as the "UK" which is largely unintentional by now, I'm sure you know I don't actually believe in the United Kingdom so I should probably start using a new word for it. I'm not sure what to use - disunited fiefdom works well but will prob upset some of our Brit Nat users on here But I largely agree with what you're saying and indeed you raised good points worthy of debate.
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Post by borgr0 on Aug 14, 2024 23:24:43 GMT
Most seem to see the protesters as violent rioters and nothing else and haven't commented on the peaceful nature of any of the protests at all. that's been completely ignored I haven't come across any reports of peaceful protests. What were these peaceful protests about and where did they occur please? What I'm saying is that the majority of protesters were peaceful even in Middlesbrough where cars were burnt etc, it's on video if you care to watch, they even say they don't agree with any kind of violence and deplore it www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdanhEKXsDANot fair to tar everyone with the same brush IMHO, there's clear video evidence of most of the protesters saying they hate the violence and aren't joining in with it, if they're there to raise money for victims of this or that should they really be treated like terrorists and criminals? Come on, this isn't right, those silly kids smashing every house's windows out, breaking and entering and smashing up every car across street after street - then burning cars don't represent the majority. If that was true during other eco protests or even BLM protests why is this protest any different? That would be quite tribal Some of the protesters on other videos even said they should be joining with the left wing protesters and Muslims and protesting outside Westminster - and they're right, they should be
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Post by Amadan on Aug 15, 2024 6:24:57 GMT
first of all I think it sad you feel that way about the "uk" and coming back. Let's be clear here , first and foremost , the race riots have been taking place in England primarily , and a few in Northern Ireland. Not the uk. It also feels prudent to point out that years of brainwashing by being raised in England means I do refer to England as the "UK" which is largely unintentional by now, I'm sure you know I don't actually believe in the United Kingdom so I should probably start using a new word for it. I'm not sure what to use - disunited fiefdom works well but will prob upset some of our Brit Nat users on here Thats a very interesting point .Is it because you couldnt be English , did you feel this identity was reserved for anglo saxons? I grew up in govan , among the Pakistani community , and by and large they refer to themselves as Scottish , not British. Our local Pakistani shopkeeper on govan road was more Scottish than me. There are of course many people in the ethnic communities in scotland ( labour leader Anas sarwar for example) and so called native Scots who see themselves as British , but in general , I have noticed , and its also been pointed out many a time , englishness seems to be an identity which excludes , or gives the impression of excluding migrants and their descendants in England , while it appears to be largely the opposite in scotland. So many "English" ethnic communities take refuge in britishness. If you are black in Glasgow , the joke is often ah.........but are you a catholic black , or protestant black? Of course west Scotlands big problem is the imported British disease of sectarianism. im wondering in part if thats why the anti muslim sentiment for example doesn't appear in Glasgow ,to the extent it does in England , because the so called christians are too busy hating each other.? Both labour and tory have played the sectarian card all my life .
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borgr0
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Post by borgr0 on Aug 15, 2024 6:30:49 GMT
Maybe subconsciously that's part of it for me, but mainly I'm very lazy and it's prob just quicker to type something lazy like "UK" rather than something like the disunited fiefdom, of course if I type "yookay" people here will spam stuff about how I'm a "plastic scot" - or something equally obnoxious to try and make themselves feel more justified in their Brit Nat spite
When I talk about the Irish, or if you show any concern at all about the Irish, people regularly call you a "plastic paddy", gawd forbid you actually care about people from other cultures and show an interest. If you don't adorn yourself with England flags and show sufficient dislike of other cultures, how dare you call yourself English!!!
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Post by Zany on Aug 15, 2024 6:34:43 GMT
I haven't come across any reports of peaceful protests. What were these peaceful protests about and where did they occur please? What I'm saying is that the majority of protesters were peaceful even in Middlesbrough where cars were burnt etc, it's on video if you care to watch, they even say they don't agree with any kind of violence and deplore it www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdanhEKXsDANot fair to tar everyone with the same brush IMHO, there's clear video evidence of most of the protesters saying they hate the violence and aren't joining in with it, if they're there to raise money for victims of this or that should they really be treated like terrorists and criminals? Come on, this isn't right, those silly kids smashing every house's windows out, breaking and entering and smashing up every car across street after street - then burning cars don't represent the majority. If that was true during other eco protests or even BLM protests why is this protest any different? That would be quite tribal Some of the protesters on other videos even said they should be joining with the left wing protesters and Muslims and protesting outside Westminster - and they're right, they should be Very good point. How does somebody protest something they feel strongly about (like immigration) if some of the crowd turn to violence and the whole crowd get branded as thugs. The thuggery gets the media coverage, the cause a bad reputation, but the real protesters remain unheard.
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Post by Zany on Aug 15, 2024 6:41:44 GMT
Maybe subconsciously that's part of it for me, but mainly I'm very lazy and it's prob just quicker to type something lazy like "UK" rather than something like the disunited fiefdom, of course if I type "yookay" people here will spam stuff about how I'm a "plastic scot" - or something equally obnoxious to try and make themselves feel more justified in their Brit Nat spite When I talk about the Irish, or if you show any concern at all about the Irish, people regularly call you a "plastic paddy", gawd forbid you actually care about people from other cultures and show an interest. If you don't adorn yourself with England flags and show sufficient dislike of other cultures, how dare you call yourself English!!! The bit I fail to understand is why supporting Scotland/Ireland/Wales can only be achieved by talking down England or the UK.
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Post by Amadan on Aug 15, 2024 6:43:29 GMT
Maybe subconsciously that's part of it for me, but mainly I'm very lazy and it's prob just quicker to type something lazy like "UK" rather than something like the disunited fiefdom, of course if I type "yookay" people here will spam stuff about how I'm a "plastic scot" - or something equally obnoxious to try and make themselves feel more justified in their Brit Nat spite When I talk about the Irish, or if you show any concern at all about the Irish, people regularly call you a "plastic paddy", gawd forbid you actually care about people from other cultures and show an interest. If you don't adorn yourself with England flags and show sufficient dislike of other cultures, how dare you call yourself English!!! Dont for a minute think im saying Scottishness is perfect , and we have no problems with racism. Im not. It is though very interesting how exclusive englishness appears to be. Plastic paddy is something we say in Glasgow for die hard Celtic fans , who see themselves as more irish then Scottish , while of course "hun " ( and far worse) is used for rangers fans , and their support of England and britian. In scotland in general , and Glasgow in particular , the union flag is seen as a symbol of hatred , labelled the butchers apron for historic reasons. Normally if someone has a union flag flying , if they want to take the chance of having their windows put in of course , it will be for orange walks , that sort of thing. I think it sad how the English identity has been tainted and made to be exclusive and the apparent haunt of the far right. Im sure this attitude has been deliberate , and Fostered by the British elite in London. While the union clings on by a thread , we know of course if the English stop being British , and retake their national English identity , the union is in big trouble. Hence why the British elite fear englishness as an identity more than the Celtic identities.
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Post by borgr0 on Aug 15, 2024 6:49:07 GMT
Absolutely spot on with all those points, very interesting info about how things are over there too and very enlightening.
I do hope to spend some real time there at some point, as well as in Ireland but who knows the way things are going, does sometimes feel like I'm trapped over here which is scary, at times.. at other times it's wonderful here, really.
I can't speak highly enough of Southerners, most of them really are very nice people here in the United States. Sadly, a lot of Northerners look down on Southerners just like the English look down on their neighbours.
A black guy I met said he felt there was less racism historically here in the south than in the north, he said and I quote - northerners like the idea of the black man but don't like the black man - southerners are happy to be closest friends with black people but many don't want any interracial marriage/race mixing etc. A strange thing, but very interesting.
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borgr0
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Post by borgr0 on Aug 15, 2024 6:51:50 GMT
Maybe subconsciously that's part of it for me, but mainly I'm very lazy and it's prob just quicker to type something lazy like "UK" rather than something like the disunited fiefdom, of course if I type "yookay" people here will spam stuff about how I'm a "plastic scot" - or something equally obnoxious to try and make themselves feel more justified in their Brit Nat spite When I talk about the Irish, or if you show any concern at all about the Irish, people regularly call you a "plastic paddy", gawd forbid you actually care about people from other cultures and show an interest. If you don't adorn yourself with England flags and show sufficient dislike of other cultures, how dare you call yourself English!!! The bit I fail to understand is why supporting Scotland/Ireland/Wales can only be achieved by talking down England or the UK. Where do I talk down England? I'm pointing out certain English attitudes are indefensible, which they are. And I'm not going to refer to the 'UK' (as much as I can avoid doing it according to my reflexive impulses at least) henceforth because I don't believe there should be a "UK" There should be nations with independence and prosperity - Ireland, England, Scotland and possibly Wales if they want their own indy. Why should England rule over everyone just because our ancient rulers decided imperialism was for the best?
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Post by Zany on Aug 15, 2024 7:00:07 GMT
The bit I fail to understand is why supporting Scotland/Ireland/Wales can only be achieved by talking down England or the UK. Where do I talk down England? I'm pointing out certain English attitudes are indefensible, which they are. And I'm not going to refer to the 'UK' (as much as I can avoid doing it according to my reflexive impulses at least) henceforth because I don't believe there should be a "UK" There should be nations with independence and prosperity - Ireland, England, Scotland and possibly Wales if they want their own indy. Why should England rule over everyone just because our ancient rulers decided imperialism was for the best? But England does not rule over them, its a union. The Scots recently had a vote and the majority said they wanted the union to remain. Had they of said they wanted to leave, they would have left. There is no ruling over by England. Certainly not in the way the Scots Nats would like you to believe.
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Post by borgr0 on Aug 16, 2024 6:59:22 GMT
Where do I talk down England? I'm pointing out certain English attitudes are indefensible, which they are. And I'm not going to refer to the 'UK' (as much as I can avoid doing it according to my reflexive impulses at least) henceforth because I don't believe there should be a "UK" There should be nations with independence and prosperity - Ireland, England, Scotland and possibly Wales if they want their own indy. Why should England rule over everyone just because our ancient rulers decided imperialism was for the best? But England does not rule over them, its a union. The Scots recently had a vote and the majority said they wanted the union to remain. Had they of said they wanted to leave, they would have left. There is no ruling over by England. Certainly not in the way the Scots Nats would like you to believe. England doesn't rule over them? Seriously? You actually believe their devolved governments have as much power as central govt in Westminster? It's not even worth arguing about, but you are entitled to your opinion. The Scot indy ref, like the Brexit ref, while the result should be respected just like the USA election result should be respected etc etc - was heavily cheated by the Nats and there's documented proof of that, so it wasn't clean - so using your Remain logic - the referendum should be rerun anyway. And that's your logic not mine, but I'm in favour of a new ref anyway because a new referendum every generation is more than fair, so that's my logic for it. That's fair logic ALSO using your remainer logic, you can't argue that Argue this: www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-35351396
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Post by Zany on Aug 16, 2024 7:15:26 GMT
But England does not rule over them, its a union. The Scots recently had a vote and the majority said they wanted the union to remain. Had they of said they wanted to leave, they would have left. There is no ruling over by England. Certainly not in the way the Scots Nats would like you to believe. England doesn't rule over them? Seriously? You actually believe their devolved governments have as much power as central govt in Westminster? It's not even worth arguing about, but you are entitled to your opinion. The Scot indy ref, like the Brexit ref, while the result should be respected just like the USA election result should be respected etc etc - was heavily cheated by the Nats and there's documented proof of that, so it wasn't clean - so using your Remain logic - the referendum should be rerun anyway. And that's your logic not mine, but I'm in favour of a new ref anyway because a new referendum every generation is more than fair, so that's my logic for it. That's fair logic ALSO using your remainer logic, you can't argue that Argue this: www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-35351396No I don't actually believe that, I believe their say is proportionate to their populations and devolved government does not mean independence. They voted on independence and chose not to have it. My logic on a second referendum is that we needed to see a clear and continuous polling showing the public had changed its mind. Such polls exist for re-joining the EU. Do they exist for Scotland wishing to leave the union? (I don't follow this closely) There were accusations of cheating in the Brexit referendum (Especially overspending) For me my rule above still applies.
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Post by borgr0 on Aug 16, 2024 7:36:25 GMT
At times yes a majority polled have been in favour of a new referendum in Scotland
And their say isn't proportionate to population, their say is fixed by Westminster who set the rules at Holyrood and regularly VETO things they chose to do for themselves, that's not right, money is "allocated" to them and that's a nonsense, they have no autonomy.
You say they chose not to have independence but you also appear to have conceded that the No campaign cheated and overspent, there were even big allegations of fraud along with video evidence of such IIRC
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