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Post by Zany on Jul 8, 2024 14:38:19 GMT
Not much of an argument that Orac. They do because I say they do No - that isn't my argument. If someone is holding your front door open and letting people in, then it is reasonable to assume a motive to that effort. They wouldn't do it for no reason. Who's holding the door open Orac.
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Post by Orac on Jul 8, 2024 14:41:25 GMT
No - that isn't my argument. If someone is holding your front door open and letting people in, then it is reasonable to assume a motive to that effort. They wouldn't do it for no reason. Who's holding the door open Orac. The left and the centre have just crashed the French political system in order to hold the door open.
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Post by Zany on Jul 8, 2024 14:46:33 GMT
Who's holding the door open Orac. The left and the centre have just crashed the French political system in order to hold the door open. You see this is why you gain no traction. Have you any evidence that the Left and centre stopped RN in order to let more immigrants in. Are you really sure that's the reason they don't want a far right party running the country?
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Post by Orac on Jul 8, 2024 14:50:20 GMT
The left and the centre have just crashed the French political system in order to hold the door open. You see this is why you gain no traction. Have you any evidence that the Left and centre stopped RN in order to let more immigrants in. Yes i can be sure of that - it's the one issues they could easily concede on, but (for some reason) wont. The same reality is reflected here in the UK The Conservatives could have likely extinguished Brexit by simply controlling / reducing immigration in the manner that they promised. It the labor party were to promise to reduce immigration by an order of magnitude, they would likely have two near uncontested electoral victories just on the promise. The hard left is now c ompletely run by Jihadis and criminal cartels. There is no part of these organisations doing anything else now.
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Post by Zany on Jul 8, 2024 15:06:47 GMT
You see this is why you gain no traction. Have you any evidence that the Left and centre stopped RN in order to let more immigrants in. Yes i can be sure of that - it's the one issues they could easily concede on, but (for some reason) wont. The same reality is reflected here in the UK The Conservatives could have likely extinguished Brexit by simply controlling / reducing immigration in the manner that they promised. It the labor party were to promise to reduce immigration by an order of magnitude, they would likely have two near uncontested electoral victories just on the promise. The hard left is now c ompletely run by Jihadis and criminal cartels. There is no part of these organisations doing anything else now. Oh I see. So its not the reason people voted for "Any other party but RN" its the thing they could have done to neuter RN Next why aren't the main stream parties reducing immigration. Is it. A, They want to destroy the French culture B, They want the world to live in France C, Immigration allows them to keep taxes low in a country with an aging population and low birth rate.
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borgr0
Observer
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Post by borgr0 on Jul 8, 2024 15:18:48 GMT
The two coalitions are completely neoliberal, well one is far-left and some neoliberals tacked on so I'm fully agains them, but RN are even worse
The idea that Reform UK but the French version would fix anything in France is laughable
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Post by Orac on Jul 8, 2024 15:30:54 GMT
Yes i can be sure of that - it's the one issues they could easily concede on, but (for some reason) wont. The same reality is reflected here in the UK The Conservatives could have likely extinguished Brexit by simply controlling / reducing immigration in the manner that they promised. It the labor party were to promise to reduce immigration by an order of magnitude, they would likely have two near uncontested electoral victories just on the promise. The hard left is now c ompletely run by Jihadis and criminal cartels. There is no part of these organisations doing anything else now. Oh I see. So its not the reason people voted for "Any other party but RN" its the thing they could have done to neuter RN No. All of the parties have 'most people not voting for them'. The hinge point point here was where the resulting coalition fell. The centre was prepared to give criminal organisations political power, to 'hold the door open'
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Post by Zany on Jul 8, 2024 15:40:33 GMT
Oh I see. So its not the reason people voted for "Any other party but RN" its the thing they could have done to neuter RN Whichever way you spin it more than 2/3rds of voters don't want RN. 2nd time you've made this unevidenced claim. Care to provide more than coz it is?
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Post by Orac on Jul 8, 2024 16:10:51 GMT
You've managed to invert the attribution in your reply.
Like i said, All parties are minority parties. The point here is the coalition had an objective and a price.
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Post by Zany on Jul 8, 2024 16:33:17 GMT
You've managed to invert the attribution in your reply. Like i said, All parties are minority parties. The point here is the coalition had an objective and a price. The objective of the coalition was to stop a far right party taking power. Because the don't want far right policies. Not to continue immigration. Policies such as banning same sex marriage, the death penalty, and limited abortion. But don't rely on me. Marine le Pen has removed those from her policies to try and woo voters, but no one believes they aren't still her views. Indeed she opposed just about everything the left and centre desire. Membership of the EU or Eurozone. She supports Protectionism over free trade. Economic nationalisation. And even suggest a partnership with Russia. Now I wander why they joined to stop her getting elected. You can't just pin it on immigration because that's your only beef.
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Post by Orac on Jul 8, 2024 16:43:09 GMT
You've managed to invert the attribution in your reply. Like i said, All parties are minority parties. The point here is the coalition had an objective and a price. The objective of the coalition was to stop a far right party taking power. Because the don't want far right policies. Not to continue immigration. The 'popular front' which has now been empowered, has strikingly similar policies to Le Pen's National Rally. Notably - except on the matter of immigration. Not that the notional policies matter because the whole thing is going to descend into chaos.
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Jul 8, 2024 17:58:59 GMT
There's an 'only good immigrant is a dead immigrant' stench to some of the posts above. Or maybe it's 'only good non white immigrant is a dead non white immigrant' Either way
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2024 18:15:31 GMT
Zany I struggle to respond to posts such as yours where my post is broken up into multiple packets which you respond to individually. I can't get my head around a multiple multiquote response. But you are right that I didn't want a Tory even though I didn't vote Labour.
But you are wrong in describing my paragraph setting out the dangers for Labour as some kind of wish list. It is nothing more sinister than a genuine opinion about the possible dangers. The last thing I want is the Tories back in in 5 years time.
I agree that building a lot more houses will ameliorate the housing crisis eventually though it will take time. But I disagree with your implication that this alone will suffice. Tenants still need more rights than they have now so some limits on excessive rent increases and an end to no fault evictions ought to be on the agenda. And a significant portion of new build needs to be social housing, perhaps including the suspension of right to buy for such new builds until such time as the shortage is ameliorated. The Tories promised to abolish no fault evictions, but of course failed to deliver it in 5 years, largely due to obstructionism from self-interested Tory landlord MPs. Far fewer Labour MPs are landlords and far more Labour voters are tenants, so hopefully Labour will address this issue. It is in their interests to do so, as well as that of the country and the economy.
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Post by Zany on Jul 8, 2024 18:49:31 GMT
There's an 'only good immigrant is a dead immigrant' stench to some of the posts above. Or maybe it's 'only good non white immigrant is a dead non white immigrant' Either way I think your imagination is silencing the conversation. As far as I know Orac is talking about higher crime rates and overpopulation. Nothing else. There is little doubt the crime rate is very high in Marseille, whether that's the result of immigration can/should be argued. Increasing population is certainly immigration. I keep saying: The reason we have Marine Le Pen is because we silence all discussion. In our fear of offending our black friends we do them great harm.
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Post by equivocal on Jul 8, 2024 19:01:46 GMT
There's an 'only good immigrant is a dead immigrant' stench to some of the posts above. Or maybe it's 'only good non white immigrant is a dead non white immigrant' Either way I think your imagination is silencing the conversation. As far as I know Orac is talking about higher crime rates and overpopulation. Nothing else. There is little doubt the crime rate is very high in Marseille, whether that's the result of immigration can/should be argued. Increasing population is certainly immigration. I keep saying: The reason we have Marine Le Pen is because we silence all discussion. In our fear of offending our black friends we do them great harm. I don't think Le Pen is a symptom of not openly discussing cultural differences. In fact, the French have gone way beyond acculturation in dealing with, in particular, their Muslim population.
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