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Post by Amadan on Jul 12, 2024 7:20:14 GMT
havent read the whole thread , but regarding migration , refugees at the EU border , blah blah blah , I always see the wider debate as being very similar to the wider debate on crime. People get hung up on talking about locking criminals up and throwing away the key/bringing back capital punishment , rather than the causes. Why are we always talking about helping/turning away refugees at the EU border or the latest dinghy on Hastings beach instead of talking about why these people travel and the root cause? Pointless trying to talk about solutions to mass migration when you have the United States of America , one of the biggest if not the biggest destabilising force in the world , wrecking countries and regions in their interests and scattering the inhabitants to the four corners of the globe. Take Libya for example. If im not mistaken , one of the richest and best governed nations in Africa during the Gaddafi regime. They also acted as a bulwark against migration from further infield on the continent into Europe. Fast forward to America and its puppets "bringing democracy " to the country , and lo and behold , out of the smoking ruins Europe is left to deal with hordes of migrants from Africa rocking up on Italian islands or heading for Spain. Seems to me the yanks are a large part of the problem. Welcome to the forum Amadan. I'm not sure how many Libyan citizens would think life under Gaddafi was good. It was they who rose up against him after a growing number of extreme human rights abuses. By example: www.hindustantimes.com/books/gaddafi-kept-schoolgirls-as-sex-slaves-book/story-6iQQZofryIVeQYTfGsCUQO.html we can all post links with propaganda and counter propaganda. Im not sure how many uk citizens could say life has been good under the tories these past few years , but no one wanted the Americans to come in and give us yank democracy did they? There were of course divisions within Libya. No one is suggesting it was a perfect paradise for Libyans , but no one believes the yanks had the right to act as the official world policemen and remove him. www.counterpunch.org/2015/10/20/libya-from-africas-wealthiest-democracy-under-gaddafi-to-terrorist-haven-after-us-intervention/ |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2024 7:24:29 GMT
The West propped up Qadafi and pretty much put him into power in the first place
That was the first mistake
But colonial (and neo colonial) intervention in Libya goes back a long, long way unfortunately
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2024 7:25:02 GMT
havent read the whole thread , but regarding migration , refugees at the EU border , blah blah blah , I always see the wider debate as being very similar to the wider debate on crime. People get hung up on talking about locking criminals up and throwing away the key/bringing back capital punishment , rather than the causes. Why are we always talking about helping/turning away refugees at the EU border or the latest dinghy on Hastings beach instead of talking about why these people travel and the root cause? Pointless trying to talk about solutions to mass migration when you have the United States of America , one of the biggest if not the biggest destabilising force in the world , wrecking countries and regions in their interests and scattering the inhabitants to the four corners of the globe. Take Libya for example. If im not mistaken , one of the richest and best governed nations in Africa during the Gaddafi regime. They also acted as a bulwark against migration from further infield on the continent into Europe. Fast forward to America and its puppets "bringing democracy " to the country , and lo and behold , out of the smoking ruins Europe is left to deal with hordes of migrants from Africa rocking up on Italian islands or heading for Spain. Seems to me the yanks are a large part of the problem. Welcome to the forum Amadan. I'm not sure how many Libyan citizens would think life under Gaddafi was good. It was they who rose up against him after a growing number of extreme human rights abuses. By example: www.hindustantimes.com/books/gaddafi-kept-schoolgirls-as-sex-slaves-book/story-6iQQZofryIVeQYTfGsCUQO.htmlBut Amadan isn’t wrong,if you look how the Arab spring was concocted and misused explains some of the problems we face from that region to this day. Being elected wearing a nice suit doesn’t make you a good person as I think many who have a less than positive view of Blair and his contribution to the massive problems that we face from the result of his and others unsavoury conduct in that region can attest to. |
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Post by Amadan on Jul 12, 2024 7:27:19 GMT
The West propped up Qadafi and pretty much put him into power in the first place That was the first mistake Did they? I do remember Blair and brown hugging Gaddafi in desert tents right enough , then the next minute the order came down from up on high in Washington that he was now deemed a bad man . The politics and history is all very interesting , but my main point is when the yanks destabilise regions , we all pay a price regarding immigration. Let them pick up the tab for the mess they make. |
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Post by Zany on Jul 13, 2024 6:28:28 GMT
The comparison is absurd, If the Tories were using torture and Murder to suppress UK citizens, we would be begging NATO to come to our rescue. Yeah it was a bit bad there, sometimes you couldn't get muffins for a whole week. That and your daughter being taken from school to Gaddafi's sex torture chambers meant you were never sure how many place setting to make for dinner. Richest state in Africa. But who had all the money? I would have hoped a left wing magazine would consider that point important. Whether the West should get involved is a difficult one. They are criticised if we do, but watch the results when we don't. Which would you say was the better outcome Iraq or Syria? Be damned if you do, be damned if you don't. |
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Post by Zany on Jul 13, 2024 6:35:44 GMT
The West propped up Qadafi and pretty much put him into power in the first place That was the first mistake Did they? I do remember Blair and brown hugging Gaddafi in desert tents right enough , then the next minute the order came down from up on high in Washington that he was now deemed a bad man . The politics and history is all very interesting , but my main point is when the yanks destabilise regions , we all pay a price regarding immigration. Let them pick up the tab for the mess they make. The history has to be read chronologically to make sense. You should be careful what you wish for. You want the Yanks to stop interfering? The Yanks interfered in our war with Hitler. The Yanks Interfered in Bosnia. The Yanks are still interfering in Ukraine. Tell me you want them to butt out? Tell me what happened in Syria is better for the Yanks not interfering. Or maybe read the history and then take a balanced view? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2024 16:42:29 GMT
Did they? I do remember Blair and brown hugging Gaddafi in desert tents right enough , then the next minute the order came down from up on high in Washington that he was now deemed a bad man . The politics and history is all very interesting , but my main point is when the yanks destabilise regions , we all pay a price regarding immigration. Let them pick up the tab for the mess they make. The history has to be read chronologically to make sense. You should be careful what you wish for. You want the Yanks to stop interfering? The Yanks interfered in our war with Hitler. The Yanks Interfered in Bosnia. The Yanks are still interfering in Ukraine. Tell me you want them to butt out? Tell me what happened in Syria is better for the Yanks not interfering. Or maybe read the history and then take a balanced view? There are times (like in WWII, Bosnia, Gulf War, Ukraine 2022-*) where intervention was more than justified, same for us defending the Falklands. Most of the other times we've (as in the West) destroyed whole nations and caused untold suffering. But IIRC you are completely pro the Iraq war aren't you sooo.......... Maybe you forgot that our governments/security service were so deeply evil in the old days, that MI5 tried to setup a school shooting in Belfast? Or going way back, we allowed the Bengal famine to occur in 1943? There are many examples of absolute evil our governments have perpetrated, but neoliberals often find excuses for the most horrific atrocities (hopefully you are not one of those..) |
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Post by Zany on Jul 13, 2024 17:19:35 GMT
The history has to be read chronologically to make sense. You should be careful what you wish for. You want the Yanks to stop interfering? The Yanks interfered in our war with Hitler. The Yanks Interfered in Bosnia. The Yanks are still interfering in Ukraine. Tell me you want them to butt out? Tell me what happened in Syria is better for the Yanks not interfering. Or maybe read the history and then take a balanced view? So the ones that turned out good are the ones that were justified, that's convenient. Sooo.... Yes I read the history of how we assisted Saddam to power, how good he was in the early days, how he became convinced Iran was going to attack Iraq, how he 'struck first' and got entangled in a long war that nearly bankrupted Iraq and made him unpopular at home. After that he began to suppress his own people and the Yanks fell out with him. The rest is probably the bit you know. Alongside a load of misinformation about it being about oil and the allies killing thousands of innocent people. Well my answer to you is Syria, Syria is the result of your opinion on Iraq. 617,000 dead. No I didn't forget, I am also aware of McCarthyism and the many other evils in our history. How far you want to go back? The East India company? Napoleonic wars? Tell me, do you blame the Germans for Hitler, do you think the current German government are Nazis? No? Why? Because we are not our fathers and certainly not our Grand fathers. People change. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2024 17:42:33 GMT
No, the good ones (as in the justified ones) are the ones that were justified. It is very convenient, it means I'm on the side of those who prevent genocide rather than causing it.
Maybe you aren't aware that many of our actions caused genocide; the ones I pointed to prevented it, there is a 180 degree difference between the two. How amazing that you attempt to spin the meaning on its head
And how many died in Iraq again?
How did ISIS come about again?
How many died due to ISIS?
Our history is often shameful, we should do more to put it right, rather than repeating the same mistakes
You seem to be willing to repeat the same mistakes and hope for a different result
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Post by Zany on Jul 13, 2024 17:59:12 GMT
Justified by whom? You and your retrospectoscope. How easy for you to pick. I am aware that you only justify after the event. Easiest job that one. Pity the poor buggers who have to decide before they know the outcome. Do you know? I do. Do you know how many Saddam killed, I do. Do you know why ISIS rose to power? I do. And still are, did you also disapprove of the Yanks going after them? No, we learn form our mistakes, but there are few perfect answers. I look at the Iraq war and consider the alternatives. I see the Syrian war and note my guesses were correct. You cherry pick the winners and claim they are your choices. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2024 18:01:57 GMT
So your post consists of asking the same questions I just asked of you back to me.
Incredible.
Do you even understand the difference between preventing a genocide and causing one?
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Post by Zany on Jul 14, 2024 7:51:41 GMT
So your post consists of asking the same questions I just asked of you back to me. Incredible. Do you even understand the difference between preventing a genocide and causing one? No it doesn't. Yes I understand the difference, I wonder how you know which its going to be without hindsight. You keep avoiding answering any difficult questions by using these petty insults. Was Syria's outcome better because the Yanks stayed out? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2024 15:05:08 GMT
Maybe helping destabilise Syria in the first place was a bad move by the yanks?
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Jul 14, 2024 15:20:27 GMT
It was Assad that destabilised Syria. Locking up children for complaining about more idiocy and then having many of their parents shot when they asked for their children back. Many of his own generals couldn't stomach that
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2024 15:39:18 GMT
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