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Post by Zany on Jul 11, 2024 11:45:01 GMT
They operated a very porous border and for too many years supported groups like Al Nusra Very complicated. Turkeys support for groups designated as terrorist by the West has a long history. Its one of the reasons I could never see Turkey joining the EU. However as a contributor to the Syrian war and refugee crises, I see nothing unless you think that without their support the rebels would have been beaten sooner and Russia not overtly involved. Is that a result that would not have lead to refugees fleeing in their millions? I think not, I believe that Assad having recognised his enemy would not have allowed them surrender and peace. The trouble with the retrospectoscope is it only looks back at what happened, it has no ability to see what might have happened if we changed history. You could equally blamer the West for giving false hope that these peoples could escape their tyrannical leaders. For even though many point to the endless failures of the Iraq war, what came after was considerably better than life under Saddam. But the West did not receive the thanks it expected, either in Iraq or back home and the trouble rumbled on in Iraq far longer than expected. So we stayed out of Syria despite the pleas for help. Does that make us liable to reap what we sow? Beyond that, can we really wash our hands of such a crises because its not our fault? |
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Post by Orac on Jul 11, 2024 15:08:21 GMT
As i said in my previous post, it wouldn't have been 14 million if Europe had projected the correct signals - ie you can't come in here. People like yourself created the expectation of being able to enter and so millions upon millions of men left their families to make their way to Europe with the expectation that they could enter and claim our territory. Having arrived, you then complete the circle of stupidity by insisting that they SIMPLY MUST be allowed to enter because there is a giant crowd of people. It all hinges on your readily apparent willingness to use Europe and her people as an infinite dumping ground with no right of refusal, yet In other threads you fret about the rise of the right and the increasing political instability of European nations Where would they have gone? The same question again and the same answer again - the problem was substantially artificial and generated by the implicit invitation.to come raid our goods, territory and services. |
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Post by Zany on Jul 11, 2024 15:24:20 GMT
Where would they have gone? The same question again and the same answer again - the problem was substantially artificial and generated by the implicit invitation.to come raid our goods, territory and services. No it wasn't. No one in Syria prior to the horrific war was thinking "I would like to be a refugee in the EU" Keep repeating this if you like, No one is going to believe there's any truth in it. |
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Steve
Hero Protagonist
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Post by Steve on Jul 11, 2024 16:38:26 GMT
Where would they have gone? The same question again and the same answer again - the problem was substantially artificial and generated by the implicit invitation.to come raid our goods, territory and services. Have you ever considered that all this 'implicit invitation', governments in league with organised crime and other dark theories you keep positioning without a shred of objective evidence might just be figments of your imagination? |
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Steve
Hero Protagonist
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Post by Steve on Jul 11, 2024 16:40:29 GMT
They operated a very porous border and for too many years supported groups like Al Nusra Very complicated. Turkeys support for groups designated as terrorist by the West has a long history. Its one of the reasons I could never see Turkey joining the EU. However as a contributor to the Syrian war and refugee crises, I see nothing unless you think that without their support the rebels would have been beaten sooner and Russia not overtly involved. Is that a result that would not have lead to refugees fleeing in their millions? I think not, I believe that Assad having recognised his enemy would not have allowed them surrender and peace. The trouble with the retrospectoscope is it only looks back at what happened, it has no ability to see what might have happened if we changed history. You could equally blamer the West for giving false hope that these peoples could escape their tyrannical leaders. For even though many point to the endless failures of the Iraq war, what came after was considerably better than life under Saddam. But the West did not receive the thanks it expected, either in Iraq or back home and the trouble rumbled on in Iraq far longer than expected. So we stayed out of Syria despite the pleas for help. Does that make us liable to reap what we sow? Beyond that, can we really wash our hands of such a crises because its not our fault? No we can't but our role should be limited to assist in funding and accepting a limited number mainly focussed on those with a legitimate and strong pre existing connenction to the UK |
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Post by Orac on Jul 11, 2024 17:36:53 GMT
The same question again and the same answer again - the problem was substantially artificial and generated by the implicit invitation.to come raid our goods, territory and services. No it wasn't. No one in Syria prior to the horrific war was thinking "I would like to be a refugee in the EU" Sure they did (effectively) - ie if there is a sensible prospect European governments are going to bum-fuck their own people to accommodate me, I want to go there.If your theory is true, most of these people should leave if order is restored. It isn't true - these people will never leave willingly. It is also why most of the flow was young males. |
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Post by Zany on Jul 11, 2024 18:56:54 GMT
Very complicated. Turkeys support for groups designated as terrorist by the West has a long history. Its one of the reasons I could never see Turkey joining the EU. However as a contributor to the Syrian war and refugee crises, I see nothing unless you think that without their support the rebels would have been beaten sooner and Russia not overtly involved. Is that a result that would not have lead to refugees fleeing in their millions? I think not, I believe that Assad having recognised his enemy would not have allowed them surrender and peace. The trouble with the retrospectoscope is it only looks back at what happened, it has no ability to see what might have happened if we changed history. You could equally blamer the West for giving false hope that these peoples could escape their tyrannical leaders. For even though many point to the endless failures of the Iraq war, what came after was considerably better than life under Saddam. But the West did not receive the thanks it expected, either in Iraq or back home and the trouble rumbled on in Iraq far longer than expected. So we stayed out of Syria despite the pleas for help. Does that make us liable to reap what we sow? Beyond that, can we really wash our hands of such a crises because its not our fault? No we can't but our role should be limited to assist in funding and accepting a limited number mainly focussed on those with a legitimate and strong pre existing connenction to the UK Then I'm back to the question I asked Orac. How do you help 14m displaced people waiting outside Poland's border. What do we tell them to do, how do we feed and care for them? Do we say head for Lebanon? You'll get UN help there? What? How on earth do you sort through 14 million terrified hungry and thirsty people for those with "strong pre existing connection to the UK?" Try to Imagine the entire population of greater London on the move scared penniless arriving at Aberdeen with no food or water. |
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Steve
Hero Protagonist
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Post by Steve on Jul 11, 2024 21:12:12 GMT
No we can't but our role should be limited to assist in funding and accepting a limited number mainly focussed on those with a legitimate and strong pre existing connenction to the UK Then I'm back to the question I asked Orac. How do you help 14m displaced people waiting outside Poland's border. What do we tell them to do, how do we feed and care for them? Do we say head for Lebanon? You'll get UN help there? What? How on earth do you sort through 14 million terrified hungry and thirsty people for those with "strong pre existing connection to the UK?" Try to Imagine the entire population of greater London on the move scared penniless arriving at Aberdeen with no food or water. Same as we have been doing. We recognised Ukraine as a special case and have participated in a multi nation programme to take in an agreed number of genuine refugees. However if Ukrainians started racking up on our beaches outside that scheme having travelled through France then they would be classed as economic migrants looking to gain unfair advantage. |
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Jul 11, 2024 21:14:28 GMT
No it wasn't. No one in Syria prior to the horrific war was thinking "I would like to be a refugee in the EU" Sure they did (effectively) - ie if there is a sensible prospect European governments are going to bum-fuck their own people to accommodate me, I want to go there.If your theory is true, most of these people should leave if order is restored. It isn't true - these people will never leave willingly. It is also why most of the flow was young males. Most of the Syrian refugees were young males for a very simple reason. They were the ones Assad's regime were telling 'join our army and kill you friends and relatives or we will kill you' IE genuine victims of persecution |
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Post by Orac on Jul 11, 2024 21:18:08 GMT
Sure they did (effectively) - ie if there is a sensible prospect European governments are going to bum-fuck their own people to accommodate me, I want to go there.If your theory is true, most of these people should leave if order is restored. It isn't true - these people will never leave willingly. It is also why most of the flow was young males. Most of the Syrian refugees were young males for a very simple reason. They were the ones Assad's regime were telling 'join our army and kill you friends and relatives or we will kill you' IE genuine victims of persecution Most of the flotsam were also male - ie most of the people not from Syria
Have you got a more generalized theory? |
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Jul 11, 2024 21:35:26 GMT
I was responding to a line of debate about Syria where I knew the reason for the large number of young males. I could speculate on an alleged preponderance of males in wider irregular migration but tha't all it would be.
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Post by Zany on Jul 11, 2024 21:52:25 GMT
Then I'm back to the question I asked Orac. How do you help 14m displaced people waiting outside Poland's border. What do we tell them to do, how do we feed and care for them? Do we say head for Lebanon? You'll get UN help there? What? How on earth do you sort through 14 million terrified hungry and thirsty people for those with "strong pre existing connection to the UK?" Try to Imagine the entire population of greater London on the move scared penniless arriving at Aberdeen with no food or water. Same as we have been doing. We recognised Ukraine as a special case and have participated in a multi nation programme to take in an agreed number of genuine refugees. However if Ukrainians started racking up on our beaches outside that scheme having travelled through France then they would be classed as economic migrants looking to gain unfair advantage. We seem to have our wires crossed. As far as I know we were talking about the Refugees that appeared on masse on the EU border. Not the current lot currently crossing the channel. |
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Post by Orac on Jul 12, 2024 6:44:26 GMT
I was responding to a line of debate about Syria where I knew the reason for the large number of young males. I could speculate on an alleged preponderance of males in wider irregular migration but tha't all it would be. You were 'using a line' |
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Post by Amadan on Jul 12, 2024 6:55:22 GMT
I was responding to a line of debate about Syria where I knew the reason for the large number of young males. I could speculate on an alleged preponderance of males in wider irregular migration but tha't all it would be. You were 'using a line' havent read the whole thread , but regarding migration , refugees at the EU border , blah blah blah , I always see the wider debate as being very similar to the wider debate on crime. People get hung up on talking about locking criminals up and throwing away the key/bringing back capital punishment , rather than the causes. Why are we always talking about helping/turning away refugees at the EU border or the latest dinghy on Hastings beach instead of talking about why these people travel and the root cause? Pointless trying to talk about solutions to mass migration when you have the United States of America , one of the biggest if not the biggest destabilising force in the world , wrecking countries and regions in their interests and scattering the inhabitants to the four corners of the globe. Take Libya for example. If im not mistaken , one of the richest and best governed nations in Africa during the Gaddafi regime. They also acted as a bulwark against migration from further infield on the continent into Europe. Fast forward to America and its puppets "bringing democracy " to the country , and lo and behold , out of the smoking ruins Europe is left to deal with hordes of migrants from Africa rocking up on Italian islands or heading for Spain. Seems to me the yanks are a large part of the problem. |
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Post by Zany on Jul 12, 2024 7:13:55 GMT
havent read the whole thread , but regarding migration , refugees at the EU border , blah blah blah , I always see the wider debate as being very similar to the wider debate on crime. People get hung up on talking about locking criminals up and throwing away the key/bringing back capital punishment , rather than the causes. Why are we always talking about helping/turning away refugees at the EU border or the latest dinghy on Hastings beach instead of talking about why these people travel and the root cause? Pointless trying to talk about solutions to mass migration when you have the United States of America , one of the biggest if not the biggest destabilising force in the world , wrecking countries and regions in their interests and scattering the inhabitants to the four corners of the globe. Take Libya for example. If im not mistaken , one of the richest and best governed nations in Africa during the Gaddafi regime. They also acted as a bulwark against migration from further infield on the continent into Europe. Fast forward to America and its puppets "bringing democracy " to the country , and lo and behold , out of the smoking ruins Europe is left to deal with hordes of migrants from Africa rocking up on Italian islands or heading for Spain. Seems to me the yanks are a large part of the problem. Welcome to the forum Amadan. I'm not sure how many Libyan citizens would think life under Gaddafi was good. It was they who rose up against him after a growing number of extreme human rights abuses. By example: www.hindustantimes.com/books/gaddafi-kept-schoolgirls-as-sex-slaves-book/story-6iQQZofryIVeQYTfGsCUQO.html |
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