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Post by Orac on Jul 10, 2024 22:44:46 GMT
The working solution would be to provide help and not let them in. However, people like yourself insist we must engage the unpractical, unsustainable, nay suicidal, technique of giving away our territory - and that's a large part of the reason there were millions (it's giant give-away). You cannot sustain a policy in which, every time a shit-hole has a war, they get to move their itinerant population into our territory - you are setting up bad incentives that will, if pursued for long enough, leave you desolated I suggest that you are happy enough with this 'absurd' solution because you are able to keep the bum end of the real costs far enough away from your doorstep (it's really at the expense of others - for now) Fine so you don't have a working solution. I do have a 'working solution' , in fact I have a very large range of solutions. What i don't have (and don't need) is one particular detailed plan. It is you that don't have a working solution. 'your solution' amounts to dumping on the people of Europe. This is not sustainable and so not really a solution. |
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Post by Zany on Jul 11, 2024 7:43:00 GMT
Fine so you don't have a working solution. I do have a 'working solution' , in fact I have a very large range of solutions. What i don't have (and don't need) is one particular detailed plan. It is you that don't have a working solution. 'your solution' amounts to dumping on the people of Europe. This is not sustainable and so not really a solution. Well you're closer here. There was no truly working solution. No one wanted 14m refugees spread across the EU, but then no one wanted to watch 14m refugees turn into the biggest human disaster in recorded history. And history shows us your prediction of EU suicide is wrong, for we had 65m refugees in 1940 and the world didn't collapse. The idea that "This is not sustainable" is just scare mongering (Just like Farage  ) It assumes another war on the scale of Syria and another 14m refugees. As an aside, I did warn people that our reluctance to get involved in Syria after the slating we received for Iraq would have its own consequences. No one who argued the Iraq was a war crime ever engaged with me on what would have happened had we NOT got involved. |
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Jul 11, 2024 8:18:37 GMT
We and other countries should be tough on any supposed refugee that has travelled through a safe country. In effect that puts more burden on countries adjacent to conflict to deal with refugees and/or intervene to curtail their neighbour's excesses.
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Post by Orac on Jul 11, 2024 9:15:46 GMT
I do have a 'working solution' , in fact I have a very large range of solutions. What i don't have (and don't need) is one particular detailed plan. It is you that don't have a working solution. 'your solution' amounts to dumping on the people of Europe. This is not sustainable and so not really a solution. Well you're closer here. There was no truly working solution. No one wanted 14m refugees spread across the EU, but then no one wanted to watch 14m refugees turn into the biggest human disaster in recorded history. As i said in my previous post, it wouldn't have been 14 million if Europe had projected the correct signals - ie you can't come in here. People like yourself created the expectation of being able to enter and so millions upon millions of men left their families to make their way to Europe with the expectation that they could enter and claim our territory. Having arrived, you then complete the circle of stupidity by insisting that they SIMPLY MUST be allowed to enter because there is a giant crowd of people. It all hinges on your readily apparent willingness to use Europe and her people as an infinite dumping ground with no right of refusal, yet In other threads you fret about the rise of the right and the increasing political instability of European nations |
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Post by Zany on Jul 11, 2024 9:15:56 GMT
We and other countries should be tough on any supposed refugee that has travelled through a safe country. In effect that puts more burden on countries adjacent to conflict to deal with refugees and/or intervene to curtail their neighbour's excesses. I feel this is just dodging the bullet. And remember Turkey took 3.4m Syrian refugees before they said no more. We could take an attitude of, its not our problem. But I think that the rest of the world doesn't just go away and the problems get steadily worse until we are forced to intervene, usually at higher cost. |
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Post by Orac on Jul 11, 2024 9:18:01 GMT
We and other countries should be tough on any supposed refugee that has travelled through a safe country. In effect that puts more burden on countries adjacent to conflict to deal with refugees and/or intervene to curtail their neighbour's excesses. At the moment we are running it as a golden opportunity for any shithole to dump its itinerant, unwanted population onto us - the incentives couldn't be worse. |
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Jul 11, 2024 9:18:49 GMT
A significant amount of the problems in Syria is down to Turkey's actions. They should reap what they sow.
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Jul 11, 2024 9:21:15 GMT
We and other countries should be tough on any supposed refugee that has travelled through a safe country. In effect that puts more burden on countries adjacent to conflict to deal with refugees and/or intervene to curtail their neighbour's excesses. At the moment we are running it as a golden opportunity for any shithole to dump its itinerant, unwanted population onto us - the incentives couldn't be worse.  |
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Post by Zany on Jul 11, 2024 9:32:46 GMT
Well you're closer here. There was no truly working solution. No one wanted 14m refugees spread across the EU, but then no one wanted to watch 14m refugees turn into the biggest human disaster in recorded history. As i said in my previous post, it wouldn't have been 14 million if Europe had projected the correct signals - ie you can't come in here. People like yourself created the expectation of being able to enter and so millions upon millions of men left their families to make their way to Europe with the expectation that they could enter and claim our territory. Having arrived, you then complete the circle of stupidity by insisting that they SIMPLY MUST be allowed to enter because there is a giant crowd of people. It all hinges on your readily apparent willingness to use Europe and her people as an infinite dumping ground with no right of refusal, yet In other threads you fret about the rise of the right and the increasing political instability of European nations Where would they have gone? |
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Post by Zany on Jul 11, 2024 9:40:14 GMT
A significant amount of the problems in Syria is down to Turkey's actions. They should reap what they sow. Really? I thought the uprising started after Assad had his police open fire on some student protesters. What was Turkeys involvement? shelterbox.org/where-we-work/syria/conflict/ |
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Post by Hutchyns on Jul 11, 2024 9:47:22 GMT
We and other countries should be tough on any supposed refugee that has travelled through a safe country. In effect that puts more burden on countries adjacent to conflict to deal with refugees and/or intervene to curtail their neighbour's excesses . The Poles seem to have gradually revised their views over the last couple of years, and would have come to their senses a lot quicker if the British and others had insisted on a 'first safe country' temporary domicile for all Ukrainians leaving town. Goodness knows what words of advice they were previously whispering into their Eastern neighbours ear, but I think we can make a shrewd guess. 'Karma is a bitch' as the saying goes.
Polish Attitudes To Ukrainian Refugees Deteriorating |
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Jul 11, 2024 9:49:20 GMT
A significant amount of the problems in Syria is down to Turkey's actions. They should reap what they sow. Really? I thought the uprising started after Assad had his police open fire on some student protesters. What was Turkeys involvement? shelterbox.org/where-we-work/syria/conflict/While ostensibly anti Assad, Turkey's obsession with making life grim for the Kurds effectively prevented the Kurds becoming a force to remove that evil Assad. And Turkey did much to enable the jihadist opposition to Assad which had the effect of raising their profile which allowed Russia to supposedly justify their bombings of anyone opposed to Assad. |
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Post by Zany on Jul 11, 2024 10:04:37 GMT
We and other countries should be tough on any supposed refugee that has travelled through a safe country. In effect that puts more burden on countries adjacent to conflict to deal with refugees and/or intervene to curtail their neighbour's excesses . The Poles seem to have gradually revised their views over the last couple of years, and would have come to their senses a lot quicker if the British and others had insisted on a 'first safe country' temporary domicile for all Ukrainians leaving town. Goodness knows what words of advice they were previously whispering into their Eastern neighbours ear, but I think we can make a shrewd guess. 'Karma is a bitch' as the saying goes.
Polish Attitudes To Ukrainian Refugees DeterioratingDo you mean that if the rest of Europe had insisted Poland take all Ukraine's refugees things would have disintegrated quickly? If so, then yes obviously, but then if we had said "None of our business" Ukraine would be part of Russia now and there would be no refugees. However the long term effect might not be one we wished for. Interesting article, but not that surprising that support wains as the war drags on. Few thought it would continue for years. I think its inevitable that Ukraine will have to give up territory to end it, a face saving exercise for Russia, but the message needs to be clear to Putin, that it wasn't worth the effort. |
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Post by Zany on Jul 11, 2024 10:10:00 GMT
While ostensibly anti Assad, Turkey's obsession with making life grim for the Kurds effectively prevented the Kurds becoming a force to remove that evil Assad. And Turkey did much to enable the jihadist opposition to Assad which had the effect of raising their profile which allowed Russia to supposedly justify their bombings of anyone opposed to Assad. Interesting twist. so if Turkey had allowed the Turkish hating Kurds to get stronger they might have toppled Assad? 1, Doesn't sound like good sense for Turkey. 2, I doubt the Kurds could have beaten Assad once he got Russian overt support. How did Turkey enable jihadist opposition to Assad? I agree that when the West refused to give help to the rebels they were forced to join forces with Isis. But don't see Turkeys part in this. |
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Jul 11, 2024 11:05:52 GMT
They operated a very porous border and for too many years supported groups like Al Nusra
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) It assumes another war on the scale of Syria and another 14m refugees. 
