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Post by patman post on May 15, 2024 14:42:57 GMT
At today's PMQ's Liz Saville Roberts, Westminster Leader, Plaid Cymru, said that harmful trade deals and Brexit checks were hitting "world famous" Welsh lamb and beef. She asked that the PM would never again sign a trade deals that were harmful to farmers...
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Post by totheleft on May 15, 2024 19:50:44 GMT
Not surprised nothing good has come out
Of Brexit
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Post by walterpaisley on May 16, 2024 8:06:32 GMT
That one did seem a pretty obvious outcome the moment a trade deal with NZ was announced.
Pre-ref' the late Mrs P and I drove down to the Hay Book Festival. As we left the main roads, somewhere past Shropshire, and headed into Wales, we were struck by how many farms were displaying "Out" posters, placards and banners.
She said at the time "leaving the EU wouldn't do much for the lamb farmers, though".
If someone with absolutely zero knowledge of farming or economics could spot that one immediately, you do have to wonder about the acumen of our political masters.
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Post by patman post on May 16, 2024 14:26:03 GMT
That one did seem a pretty obvious outcome the moment a trade deal with NZ was announced. Pre-ref' the late Mrs P and I drove down to the Hay Book Festival. As we left the main roads, somewhere past Shropshire, and headed into Wales, we were struck by how many farms were displaying "Out" posters, placards and banners. She said at the time "leaving the EU wouldn't do much for the lamb farmers, though". If someone with absolutely zero knowledge of farming or economics could spot that one immediately, you do have to wonder about the acumen of our political masters. Older relatives tell me that NZ lamb and Argentine beef was a staple pre-EEC/EU days. If so, while accepting UK farmers had 40 years to get used to no competition from NZ, what changes do they now need to get back to pre-EEC/EU days...?
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Post by Zany on May 17, 2024 7:24:50 GMT
That one did seem a pretty obvious outcome the moment a trade deal with NZ was announced. Pre-ref' the late Mrs P and I drove down to the Hay Book Festival. As we left the main roads, somewhere past Shropshire, and headed into Wales, we were struck by how many farms were displaying "Out" posters, placards and banners. She said at the time "leaving the EU wouldn't do much for the lamb farmers, though". If someone with absolutely zero knowledge of farming or economics could spot that one immediately, you do have to wonder about the acumen of our political masters. Older relatives tell me that NZ lamb and Argentine beef was a staple pre-EEC/EU days. If so, while accepting UK farmers had 40 years to get used to no competition from NZ, what changes do they now need to get back to pre-EEC/EU days...? Not sure its possible to answer that question. So much is different from 40 years ago including things beyond UK control such as the growing global market, the massive growth in meat production in Australia and NZ and the value of land in the UK.
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Post by montegriffo on May 17, 2024 14:44:38 GMT
That one did seem a pretty obvious outcome the moment a trade deal with NZ was announced. Pre-ref' the late Mrs P and I drove down to the Hay Book Festival. As we left the main roads, somewhere past Shropshire, and headed into Wales, we were struck by how many farms were displaying "Out" posters, placards and banners. She said at the time "leaving the EU wouldn't do much for the lamb farmers, though". If someone with absolutely zero knowledge of farming or economics could spot that one immediately, you do have to wonder about the acumen of our political masters. Older relatives tell me that NZ lamb and Argentine beef was a staple pre-EEC/EU days. If so, while accepting UK farmers had 40 years to get used to no competition from NZ, what changes do they now need to get back to pre-EEC/EU days...? The main issue is the slackening off of regulations around animal welfare standards, growth hormone, anti-biotic use and hygiene standards (bleached chickens etc) which give non-EU importers an economic advantage. British farmers will end up with a choice of lowering their own standards (where UK law allows) or going out of business. A race to the bottom.
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Post by montegriffo on May 17, 2024 14:53:24 GMT
Previously Australia and New Zealand etc could only export meat to the UK which complied with EU reg's so while we were in we were protected from having to compete with the lower standards of Australian beef for example. America has lower standards still as does Brazil and many other potential importers. The EU and the UK also have some of the highest environmental standards. Rules about nitrate pollution etc. Again making it difficult to compete with non-EU producers with lower standards.
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Post by patman post on May 17, 2024 20:32:40 GMT
Older relatives tell me that NZ lamb and Argentine beef was a staple pre-EEC/EU days. If so, while accepting UK farmers had 40 years to get used to no competition from NZ, what changes do they now need to get back to pre-EEC/EU days...? The main issue is the slackening off of regulations around animal welfare standards, growth hormone, anti-biotic use and hygiene standards (bleached chickens etc) which give non-EU importers an economic advantage. British farmers will end up with a choice of lowering their own standards (where UK law allows) or going out of business. A race to the bottom. Not sure that’s true. Having spent some months in Australia I know that Aussies pride themselves on their grass (rather than grain) fed beef, and very good it is too. And I can’t say that chicken is chlorine washed. But I did notice that butchers frequently washed down their benches and premises with bleach-smelling buckets, scrubbing brushes and swabs. And do we know that antibiotic use any more widespread in ANZ than in the UK…?
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Post by montegriffo on May 17, 2024 21:07:23 GMT
The main issue is the slackening off of regulations around animal welfare standards, growth hormone, anti-biotic use and hygiene standards (bleached chickens etc) which give non-EU importers an economic advantage. British farmers will end up with a choice of lowering their own standards (where UK law allows) or going out of business. A race to the bottom. Not sure that’s true. Having spent some months in Australia I know that Aussies pride themselves on their grass (rather than grain) fed beef, and very good it is too. And I can’t say that chicken is chlorine washed. But I did notice that butchers frequently washed down their benches and premises with bleach-smelling buckets, scrubbing brushes and swabs. And do we know that antibiotic use any more widespread in ANZ than in the UK…? Australia rear beef using growth hormones which are not allowed in the UK or EU. In many countries anti-biotics are used routinely as a preventative where as here they can only be used in cases of actual illness. This enables producers to raise animals in more cramped and less sanitary conditions giving a competitive advantage and increases the chances of developing anti-biotic resistant bacteria. Bleached chicken is standard practice in the US. Rather than insist on higher standards of hygiene in meat preparation and packing plants the chicken is just washed afterwards. Again, giving an economic advantage to foreign imports.
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Post by patman post on May 18, 2024 12:36:56 GMT
Not sure that’s true. Having spent some months in Australia I know that Aussies pride themselves on their grass (rather than grain) fed beef, and very good it is too. And I can’t say that chicken is chlorine washed. But I did notice that butchers frequently washed down their benches and premises with bleach-smelling buckets, scrubbing brushes and swabs. And do we know that antibiotic use any more widespread in ANZ than in the UK…? Australia rear beef using growth hormones which are not allowed in the UK or EU. In many countries anti-biotics are used routinely as a preventative where as here they can only be used in cases of actual illness. This enables producers to raise animals in more cramped and less sanitary conditions giving a competitive advantage and increases the chances of developing anti-biotic resistant bacteria. Bleached chicken is standard practice in the US. Rather than insist on higher standards of hygiene in meat preparation and packing plants the chicken is just washed afterwards. Again, giving an economic advantage to foreign imports. I'm not sure how much Australian antibiotic use in farming currently differs from the UK. Even the pressure group Save Our Antibiotics compares data from Australia in 2010 with UK data from 2019** — a decade can greatly impact awarenes and use, even in slow-moving government circles.
Only nine months ago, the Australian government was able to claim: "Australian animal industries are one of the lowest users of antimicrobials in the world. Testing of AMR in some of our major livestock and seafood industries has shown there is little to no resistance to antimicrobials".
And: • Australia has one of the most conservative approaches in the world to the use of antimicrobials in food producing animals. • Australia is a world leader in minimising the use of antibiotics in food producing animals. • In a 2015 United Kingdom review, Australia was ranked the fifth-lowest for antibiotic use in agriculture among the 29 countries examined.
To find out international action on the topic, the latter document and its ancillaries are well worth a read...
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Post by montegriffo on May 18, 2024 13:52:14 GMT
Australia rear beef using growth hormones which are not allowed in the UK or EU. In many countries anti-biotics are used routinely as a preventative where as here they can only be used in cases of actual illness. This enables producers to raise animals in more cramped and less sanitary conditions giving a competitive advantage and increases the chances of developing anti-biotic resistant bacteria. Bleached chicken is standard practice in the US. Rather than insist on higher standards of hygiene in meat preparation and packing plants the chicken is just washed afterwards. Again, giving an economic advantage to foreign imports. I'm not sure how much Australian antibiotic use in farming currently differs from the UK. Even the pressure group Save Our Antibiotics compares data from Australia in 2010 with UK data from 2019** — a decade can greatly impact awarenes and use, even in slow-moving government circles.
Only nine months ago, the Australian government was able to claim: "Australian animal industries are one of the lowest users of antimicrobials in the world. Testing of AMR in some of our major livestock and seafood industries has shown there is little to no resistance to antimicrobials".
And: • Australia has one of the most conservative approaches in the world to the use of antimicrobials in food producing animals. • Australia is a world leader in minimising the use of antibiotics in food producing animals. • In a 2015 United Kingdom review, Australia was ranked the fifth-lowest for antibiotic use in agriculture among the 29 countries examined.
To find out international action on the topic, the latter document and its ancillaries are well worth a read...
I never actually said antibiotics were an issue in Aussie beef. However, 40% of Australian beef is raised using growth hormones. www.theguardian.com/food/2021/jun/06/nearly-half-of-australias-cattle-is-treated-with-growth-hormones-is-it-safe-to-eatI'm not sure whether the meat is safe to eat or not and as a vegetarian I'm not that bothered but it does give Australian farmers an advantage over local farmers which I do care about and I don't think it is the most humane way to raise animals. Hormones in dairy herds is where the real problems were. Most countries have banned that practice though including Australia. At the end of the day we just shouldn't be importing meat from literally the other side of the planet when we can produce our own or import it from much closer. The only thing that makes it economically viable to ship meat all the way from Australia in refrigerated containers is our higher welfare and quality standards. If Brexit really was about protecting our borders we should be applying huge tariffs to discourage imports of meat from outside Europe.
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Post by patman post on May 19, 2024 13:16:40 GMT
Totally agree your point about importing from the other side of the world what can be produced nearer home — a major factor for my opposition to leaving the EU. Adding more difficulties to UK farmers and food producers selling into the EU, doesn’t help local food production or bring us lower food prices — as promised by Rees Mogg…
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Post by vinny on May 21, 2024 13:41:16 GMT
Not surprised nothing good has come out Of Brexit Don't lie to yourself. Loads of good has come from Brexit. Unemployment fell to the lowest level since the 1970's, industrial activity has grown, exports have grown. Compensating for inflation, our exports to the EU are still worth a massive lot more now than they were when we were in. If we'd stayed in, we'd be exporting £295.2 billion to the EU instead of the £354.65 billion we exported last year. Inflation adjusted figures from when we were in compared to the actual exports we did last year. Our economy was £59.45bn better off last year than it would have been if we'd stayed in.
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Steve
Hero Protagonist
Posts: 3,698
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Post by Steve on May 21, 2024 20:44:53 GMT
Not surprised nothing good has come out Of Brexit Don't lie to yourself. Loads of good has come from Brexit. Unemployment fell to the lowest level since the 1970's, industrial activity has grown, exports have grown. Compensating for inflation, our exports to the EU are still worth a massive lot more now than they were when we were in. If we'd stayed in, we'd be exporting £295.2 billion to the EU instead of the £354.65 billion we exported last year. Inflation adjusted figures from when we were in compared to the actual exports we did last year. Our economy was £59.45bn better off last year than it would have been if we'd stayed in. Wild guessing ^ And this report suggests you're wrong. Exports to to the EU were increasing before we left (despite the lies leavers told saying the opposite) and 2022 and 2023 were catching up post lockdown See page 14 researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-7851/CBP-7851.pdf
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Post by vinny on May 22, 2024 7:36:55 GMT
Exports to the EU did increase, but you haven't mentioned why. The pound, which had been overvalued prior to the referendum "crashed", in the words of remainers at the time.
That made our exports cheaper.
We still have that competitive edge now.
Prior to the referendum the pound was too strong, and our manufacturing was in decline.
In 2015 we exported £223.3 billion to the EU. Pre referendum trade was poor.
We weren't competitive until after the leave vote.
Had we voted to stay, we'd have suffered from an overvalued pound and industrial decline and our exports to the EU would have been far poorer than we now enjoy.
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