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Post by Hutchyns on Nov 7, 2024 10:45:42 GMT
Steve Wait for Election post-mortem Steve  . I'm sure there'll be a few that conclude the Republican's swept home solely on the back of Trumps lies, and if there isn't you'll be able to fill the void. With or without Trump, American citizens would have viewed the scenes of devastation with their own eyes, on their television screens nightly, interviews with people who lived in the areas, heard from friends and family who live near by etc. If the people directly affected were reporting back that the FEMA response was good and timely, then Trump's efforts to swim against the prevailing tide (or flood waters in this case) would have struggled to cut through. And the gratitude for the Sleepy Joe Administration for its first class response will surely have been reflected at the ballot box in those areas ? I neither know or care what Trump said about the floods. Americans have had years, if not decades to decide whether to take Trump's words at face value. A 'we never would have voted for him if we had the slightest suspicion he might be lying' excuse isn't going to wash. Even your 'nasty, horrible, selfish electorate' explanation probably has more credibility  |
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Post by equivocal on Nov 7, 2024 12:44:10 GMT
Avon Calling It's such a pity that the small segment from The Telegraph's front page didn't show for you, as it encapsulated perfectly the point I was trying to make. I suspect some of Zany's green ink has seeped into the system and prevented attachments being visible on occasions. But fear not, the perception that I've inadequately failed to explain, is held by a not insignificant cohort of the electorate ..... and is I believe, central to the comprehensive victory achieved by Trump's Republicans, and central to the substantial number of votes garnered by Reform at our last election. The good news, is that over the coming weeks and months, the analysis, and ongoing examination as to why people flocked to Trump and shunned caring sharing Kamala, will be coming at us in spades. While there'll be some commentators telling you there's no need to look any further than 'nastiness, selfishness, and greed' to provide the answers ..... there will be plenty of others who will explain what I was trying to get at much more effectively. The Americans alienated from their own Government that can find millions if not billions for weapons to be dropped onto people in foreign countries, but couldn't come up with the funds to adequately help those who needed life or death assistance with the floods in areas of the States such as North Carolina a month or so ago. The British who feel alienated from their own Government that provides State funding to keep its prisoners teeth in good health, while at the same time many poor working class areas are dental deserts for law abiding citizens. I'm sure this has stoked enough antipathy, that sufficient people couldn't wait to throw Rishi, Sleepy Joe, and Kamala out on their ear. The inquests will make interesting reading.
There will, I'm sure, be many rationalizations presented. I don't know if yours is right or wrong. However, when times are hard it strikes me as pretty clever politics to suggest to voters that their hard times are down to the incumbent government and not them. Following the catharsis with messages of out-groups getting help while deserving citizens are not does no harm at all.
BTW - the Telegraph snip came through OK here.
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Post by Orac on Nov 7, 2024 13:02:28 GMT
Biden has to take most of the blame for this. In 2020 he declared that he would be a single term president. To leave it so late to drop out of the race has destroyed his legacy. It left no time for the party to find a decent candidate. Kamala has been hopeless. Doubling down on identity politics and concentrating on issues such as abortion which are well down the list of concerns for the electorate. How bad do you have to be to lose to a convicted felon who sat on his hands while a mob attacked the Capitol? A man found guilty of sexual assault and fraud. I'm seriously depressed about the future of the Western world. Especially the future of the environment. It is Joe Biden's fault but only in a distant sense. The poor man lost his full faculties before 2020 and is now near vegetable status. He almost certainly does as he is instructed by his carers, which raises an interesting question - who is currently running the US as president? and does leaving a vegetable in notional charge not send a very bad message? I think some sizable portion of the blame must go to the liars - people, who rather than concentrate on substantial criticisms of Trump, concentrated instead on echoing various lies and half-truths |
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Post by AvonCalling on Nov 7, 2024 13:29:52 GMT
. . their own Government that can find millions if not billions for weapons to be dropped onto people in foreign countries, but couldn't come up with the funds to adequately help those who needed life or death assistance with the floods in areas of the States such as North Carolina a month or so ago. . . . Jeez just how many of Trump's lies did you fall for? Are you saying that money wasn't provided by the USA for weapons in Ukraine because I am pretty sure it was and I am pretty sure the same is the case with the UK. So money was found for what the politicians want to find the money for but we are told we have to pay more taxes for the "blackhole" (which wasn't a good movie at all). Now if the money sent to Ukraine (be it arms or soldiers it's all funded by the tax payers of the donor countries) isn't enough to fill the black hole or is a piddling percentage well that's an argument for the government not really neglecting it's electorate. Is that what you mean or is it something else that you mean. Qualification - I do not want to see Putin profit from his warmongering but I also want honesty about what we are paying, why and what trade offs we are being asked to accept. People who want their teeth fixed with the taxes they pay rather than paying for a proxy war in the ukraine are not evil or nasty but have a point...if the funds are significant. |
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Post by AvonCalling on Nov 7, 2024 13:30:41 GMT
Avon Calling It's such a pity that the small segment from The Telegraph's front page didn't show for you, as it encapsulated perfectly the point I was trying to make. I suspect some of Zany's green ink has seeped into the system and prevented attachments being visible on occasions. But fear not, the perception that I've inadequately failed to explain, is held by a not insignificant cohort of the electorate ..... and is I believe, central to the comprehensive victory achieved by Trump's Republicans, and central to the substantial number of votes garnered by Reform at our last election. The good news, is that over the coming weeks and months, the analysis, and ongoing examination as to why people flocked to Trump and shunned caring sharing Kamala, will be coming at us in spades. While there'll be some commentators telling you there's no need to look any further than 'nastiness, selfishness, and greed' to provide the answers ..... there will be plenty of others who will explain what I was trying to get at much more effectively. The Americans alienated from their own Government that can find millions if not billions for weapons to be dropped onto people in foreign countries, but couldn't come up with the funds to adequately help those who needed life or death assistance with the floods in areas of the States such as North Carolina a month or so ago. The British who feel alienated from their own Government that provides State funding to keep its prisoners teeth in good health, while at the same time many poor working class areas are dental deserts for law abiding citizens. I'm sure this has stoked enough antipathy, that sufficient people couldn't wait to throw Rishi, Sleepy Joe, and Kamala out on their ear. The inquests will make interesting reading. There will, I'm sure, be many rationalizations presented. I don't know if yours is right or wrong. However, when times are hard it strikes me as pretty clever politics to suggest to voters that their hard times are down to the incumbent government and not them. Following the catharsis with messages of out-groups getting help while deserving citizens are not does no harm at all. BTW - the Telegraph snip came through OK here.
Re BTW it could be the firewall I am behind |
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Post by patman post on Nov 7, 2024 15:41:03 GMT
One of the better outcomes of Trump's resounding victory is unlikely armed insurrection at the result...
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Post by Zany on Nov 7, 2024 19:01:54 GMT
Jeez just how many of Trump's lies did you fall for? Are you saying that money wasn't provided by the USA for weapons in Ukraine because I am pretty sure it was and I am pretty sure the same is the case with the UK. So money was found for what the politicians want to find the money for but we are told we have to pay more taxes for the "blackhole" (which wasn't a good movie at all). Now if the money sent to Ukraine (be it arms or soldiers it's all funded by the tax payers of the donor countries) isn't enough to fill the black hole or is a piddling percentage well that's an argument for the government not really neglecting it's electorate. Is that what you mean or is it something else that you mean. Qualification - I do not want to see Putin profit from his warmongering but I also want honesty about what we are paying, why and what trade offs we are being asked to accept. People who want their teeth fixed with the taxes they pay rather than paying for a proxy war in the ukraine are not evil or nasty but have a point...if the funds are significant. Do you think a significant number of people are happy to cheer Ukraine on while privately wanting to let Putin have it? |
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Steve
Hero Protagonist
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Post by Steve on Nov 7, 2024 22:11:29 GMT
Jeez just how many of Trump's lies did you fall for? Are you saying that money wasn't provided by the USA for weapons in Ukraine because I am pretty sure it was and I am pretty sure the same is the case with the UK. So money was found for what the politicians want to find the money for but we are told we have to pay more taxes for the "blackhole" (which wasn't a good movie at all). Now if the money sent to Ukraine (be it arms or soldiers it's all funded by the tax payers of the donor countries) isn't enough to fill the black hole or is a piddling percentage well that's an argument for the government not really neglecting it's electorate. Is that what you mean or is it something else that you mean. Qualification - I do not want to see Putin profit from his warmongering but I also want honesty about what we are paying, why and what trade offs we are being asked to accept. People who want their teeth fixed with the taxes they pay rather than paying for a proxy war in the ukraine are not evil or nasty but have a point...if the funds are significant. FFS the lie Hutchyns repeated was the Trump story that money was diverted from the relief agancies edition.cnn.com/2024/10/06/politics/fact-check-trump-helene-response-north-carolina/index.html
'Fact check: Six days of Trump lies about the Hurricane Helene response . . . ' |
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Post by AvonCalling on Nov 8, 2024 14:49:16 GMT
Are you saying that money wasn't provided by the USA for weapons in Ukraine because I am pretty sure it was and I am pretty sure the same is the case with the UK. So money was found for what the politicians want to find the money for but we are told we have to pay more taxes for the "blackhole" (which wasn't a good movie at all). Now if the money sent to Ukraine (be it arms or soldiers it's all funded by the tax payers of the donor countries) isn't enough to fill the black hole or is a piddling percentage well that's an argument for the government not really neglecting it's electorate. Is that what you mean or is it something else that you mean. Qualification - I do not want to see Putin profit from his warmongering but I also want honesty about what we are paying, why and what trade offs we are being asked to accept. People who want their teeth fixed with the taxes they pay rather than paying for a proxy war in the ukraine are not evil or nasty but have a point...if the funds are significant. Do you think a significant number of people are happy to cheer Ukraine on while privately wanting to let Putin have it? I am not sure I am that cynical which is either impressive given I just turned 57 or really very niaive |
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Post by AvonCalling on Nov 8, 2024 14:52:41 GMT
Are you saying that money wasn't provided by the USA for weapons in Ukraine because I am pretty sure it was and I am pretty sure the same is the case with the UK. So money was found for what the politicians want to find the money for but we are told we have to pay more taxes for the "blackhole" (which wasn't a good movie at all). Now if the money sent to Ukraine (be it arms or soldiers it's all funded by the tax payers of the donor countries) isn't enough to fill the black hole or is a piddling percentage well that's an argument for the government not really neglecting it's electorate. Is that what you mean or is it something else that you mean. Qualification - I do not want to see Putin profit from his warmongering but I also want honesty about what we are paying, why and what trade offs we are being asked to accept. People who want their teeth fixed with the taxes they pay rather than paying for a proxy war in the ukraine are not evil or nasty but have a point...if the funds are significant. FFS the lie Hutchyns repeated was the Trump story that money was diverted from the relief agancies edition.cnn.com/2024/10/06/politics/fact-check-trump-helene-response-north-carolina/index.html
'Fact check: Six days of Trump lies about the Hurricane Helene response . . . 'On the specific point of robbing from relief funds fair enough must have missed that. On the broader point governments are still finding money for the proxy war and claiming poverty when it comes to taxing people more for what they are actually voted in to sort out so it still holds that it gives many the impression that governments can always find money for what they want which also feeds into the public's general distrust of politicians and probably the MSM. For perspective from a quick google: Aid to ukraine 23-24 - 228million Savings from chnages to WFA 1.4 Billion.
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borg0
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Post by borg0 on Nov 9, 2024 5:39:09 GMT
Roe v Wade was the abortion rights issue. It's one of the most disturbing things about US politics, that their judiciary are not independent and impartial, but political appointees. There's no such thing as independent and impartial; everyone has bias. That's a counter argument to your point, but I agree in the main: there shouldn't be political appointees to the judiciary, but then people no longer want democracy period and that is fair enough The USA isn't actually a democracy anyway, it is a republic; in the past the results were always edited to make the Establishment's preferred candidate the winner en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1816_United_States_presidential_election#General_electionThere's no such thing as "pure democracy" in any such country in the world in the first place anyway |
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Steve
Hero Protagonist
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Post by Steve on Nov 10, 2024 13:27:31 GMT
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Post by montegriffo on Nov 10, 2024 14:21:59 GMT
The answer does not lie in more identity politics.
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borg0
Full Member
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Post by borg0 on Nov 10, 2024 16:40:03 GMT
It was all down to God really, as all things are
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Post by montegriffo on Nov 10, 2024 16:57:29 GMT
It was all down to God really, as all things are God is a Trump supporter? An adulterous rapist who steals from cancer charities and pays for sex with porn stars? You need a better god. Have you considered Gaia? |
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. I'm sure there'll be a few that conclude the Republican's swept home solely on the back of Trumps lies, and if there isn't you'll be able to fill the void. With or without Trump, American citizens would have viewed the scenes of devastation with their own eyes, on their television screens nightly, interviews with people who lived in the areas, heard from friends and family who live near by etc. If the people directly affected were reporting back that the FEMA response was good and timely, then Trump's efforts to swim against the prevailing tide (or flood waters in this case) would have struggled to cut through. And the gratitude for the Sleepy Joe Administration for its first class response will surely have been reflected at the ballot box in those areas ?
