Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2024 20:43:07 GMT
He calls Zany a believer in global communism. Then backtracks when challenged on such a ridiculous assertion by saying he is merely being manipulated, presumably by global communists. Yet he cannot provide a definition of what global communism actually is supposed to be nor any indication that he actually knows what communism is at all. And his own apparent belief in reds under the bed conspiracy theories suggests he is actually talking out of his arse. I didn't say that Zany believes in communism, I said that,, every now and then 'he 'does an advert' for world communism'. If i wanted to talk to you about 'a definition' of communism' , I could have easily entered google, typed the word 'communism', clicked the top link and then copied and pasted the text. You seem to be boasting that this is within your capabilities but outside mine, but from my perspective this really isn't much of a boast. Copying and pasting into a conversation t'he definition' of a political philosophy, whose proponents all have different takes on 'how it could work', but which has failed with every attempt at practical implementation, is the sort of thing a fool would do, Rather than talking about "the definition of communism", it makes far more sense to talk about communism I was not asking you for a copy and paste. Any clown can do that. What I was really trying to get at is what your definition of it is, and in what way Zany has been advertising it. Because it clearly differs from anything that is an accurate definition. But then you knew that anyway which is why you tried to insult instead. You sound like one of those typical reds under the beds clowns who imagine communism everywhere. And if you don't like being insulted, don't throw insults. If you want to discuss communism as if it has any relevance anymore, I suggest you start a thread about it instead of derailing this one which is about the harm being caused by too much inequality. But your modus operandi has always been to derail discussions you dont like and cant win onto something else which ticks your own ideological boxes. Because what is as plain as day is your obvious desire to equate any criticism of excessive inequality with communism simply because you disapprove of such criticism. You are so transparent.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2024 20:47:43 GMT
Yep anyone that thought that idiot McCarthyism died with McCarthy is very mistaken. McCarthyism is alive and well here on this very forum, as demonstrated by Earache.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2024 20:49:58 GMT
You seem to be boasting that this is within your capabilities but outside mine, but from my perspective this really isn't much of a boast. Copying and pasting into a conversation t'he definition' of a political philosophy, whose proponents all have different takes on 'how it could work', but which has failed with every attempt at practical implementation, is the sort of thing a fool would do, I think it's fair to say that communism has failed at every attempt at practical implementation. But there are things which will only work under the right conditions. Marx was of the opinion that communism could only work in a country with a strong industrial base and a long and established tradition of democracy. I imagine that one of the Nordic countries will be the first real communist state. But that's still a long way off. People often forget that Marx claimed that communism is something that will naturally develop under certain conditions. It will just happen. Industrialised societies, he said, become increasingly socialist over time. That is, in every industrialised society there will be a marked trend towards increased equality, until, after a very long time, those societies will become communist. This is his dialectic theory. In your opinion, is the UK becoming increasingly socialist? Has there been a recognisable trend towards equality in respect of workers' rights, tenants' rights, etc? Are workers and tenants in a much better place than they were 100 years ago? I think they are. And I think that is true of every industrialised democracy. I don't believe that it is far fetched to say that, if this trend continues, there may be many industrial societies that approximate communist states in a hundred years' time, as Marx has suggested. I think he is just talking delusional shit as usual. Not sure we ought to be encouraging him. As for the relevance of communism to this country, there is none. There are hardly any communists here, and any there might be are hopeless nobodies wholly lacking in influence or power, except in our resident McCarthyite's imagination. He probably thinks we are communists, lol. If so this would highlight even more how clueless he is about what communism actually is. So I would suggest that rather than copying and pasting something found on google, he settles for merely reading it himself instead and educating himself. The rest of us already know what communism is. And have the good sense not to be communists. What he has declined to spell out is what his own definition of communism actually is because it clearly differs from the real one.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2024 20:54:35 GMT
He calls Zany a believer in global communism. Then backtracks when challenged on such a ridiculous assertion by saying he is merely being manipulated, presumably by global communists. Yet he cannot provide a definition of what global communism actually is supposed to be nor any indication that he actually knows what communism is at all. And his own apparent belief in reds under the bed conspiracy theories suggests he is actually talking out of his arse. I didn't say that Zany believes in communism, I said that,, every now and then 'he 'does an advert' for world communism'. If i wanted to talk to you about 'a definition' of communism' , I could have easily entered google, typed the word 'communism', clicked the top link and then copied and pasted the text. You seem to be boasting that this is within your capabilities but outside mine, but from my perspective this really isn't much of a boast. Copying and pasting into a conversation t'he definition' of a political philosophy, whose proponents all have different takes on 'how it could work', but which has failed with every attempt at practical implementation, is the sort of thing a fool would do, Rather than talking about "the definition of communism", it makes far more sense to talk about communismBut that's the problem. Your own definition of what constitutes communism seems to differ from what communism actually is. So anything you cut and paste would be irrelevant, especially if you cannot point out what part of it Zany is supposedly advertising
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Post by Orac on Sept 22, 2024 10:15:53 GMT
You seem to be boasting that this is within your capabilities but outside mine, but from my perspective this really isn't much of a boast. Copying and pasting into a conversation t'he definition' of a political philosophy, whose proponents all have different takes on 'how it could work', but which has failed with every attempt at practical implementation, is the sort of thing a fool would do, I think it's fair to say that communism has failed at every attempt at practical implementation. But there are things which will only work under the right conditions. Marx was of the opinion that communism could only work in a country with a strong industrial base and a long and established tradition of democracy. I imagine that one of the Nordic countries will be the first real communist state. But that's still a long way off. People often forget that Marx claimed that communism is something that will naturally develop under certain conditions. It will just happen. Industrialised societies, he said, become increasingly socialist over time. That is, in every industrialised society there will be a marked trend towards increased equality, until, after a very long time, those societies will become communist. This is his dialectic theory. In your opinion, is the UK becoming increasingly socialist? Has there been a recognisable trend towards equality in respect of workers' rights, tenants' rights, etc? Are workers and tenants in a much better place than they were 100 years ago? I think they are. And I think that is true of every industrialised democracy. I don't believe that it is far fetched to say that, if this trend continues, there may be many industrial societies that approximate communist states in a hundred years' time, as Marx has suggested. On your first point Marx is admitting here that communism is a kind of pantomime that's incapable of the kind of flexible, general purpose organisation that could allow industrialisation as an emergent feature . In the communist model, 'Industrialisation' would have to be identified as a thing we should do, a picture would have to exist of 'industrialised' as a final state, a, planner would have to work out who needed to do what to get to that state and then orders would be issued to tell the people in their wigwams to stop knitting macrame and switch instead to smelting steel and building cell towers. I think ithis betrays a kind 'final state' thinking - that the world is heading to 'finished state' in which all the substantial problems are solved. - that, when 'capitalism' (free exchange) solves all the problems, things will just flatl-ine into a state that can be 'managed' in the same way you would manage a warehouse or stock levels in a supermarket. On your second point - When you say societies are becoming more 'socialistic', it's not entirely clear what you mean. You could be saying something that would include the notion that the US constitution is a socialistic document because it erased the legal distinctions of nobility and therefore made people 'more equal' in one sense. You could alternatively mean that governments are becoming more re-distributive in their approach. The latter observation, while true, comes with other observations - that the redistribution model looks increasing unsustainable, likely incompatible with democracy and appears to be accompanied by increasing inequality, rather than decreasing..I would make the prediction that, if western governments keep pursuing redistribution as a means to gain/take/maintain power, these societies are not going to transform into socialist paradises, but rather into third world tips run by warlords.
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Post by Saint on Sept 22, 2024 10:19:41 GMT
I think it's fair to say that communism has failed at every attempt at practical implementation. But there are things which will only work under the right conditions. Marx was of the opinion that communism could only work in a country with a strong industrial base and a long and established tradition of democracy. I imagine that one of the Nordic countries will be the first real communist state. But that's still a long way off. People often forget that Marx claimed that communism is something that will naturally develop under certain conditions. It will just happen. Industrialised societies, he said, become increasingly socialist over time. That is, in every industrialised society there will be a marked trend towards increased equality, until, after a very long time, those societies will become communist. This is his dialectic theory. In your opinion, is the UK becoming increasingly socialist? Has there been a recognisable trend towards equality in respect of workers' rights, tenants' rights, etc? Are workers and tenants in a much better place than they were 100 years ago? I think they are. And I think that is true of every industrialised democracy. I don't believe that it is far fetched to say that, if this trend continues, there may be many industrial societies that approximate communist states in a hundred years' time, as Marx has suggested. I think ithis betrays a kind 'final state' thinking - that the world is heading to 'finished state' in which all the substantial problems are solved. - that, when 'capitalism' (free exchange) solves all the problems, things will just flatl-ine into a state that can be 'managed' in the same way you would manage a warehouse or stock levels in a supermarket. Yes, it betrays a kind of final state thinking. Marx's dialectic is a variation/inversion of Hegel's thinking, which, as you probably know, presents a sort of historical journey to a final destination.
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Post by Orac on Sept 22, 2024 10:24:07 GMT
I didn't say that Zany believes in communism, I said that,, every now and then 'he 'does an advert' for world communism'. If i wanted to talk to you about 'a definition' of communism' , I could have easily entered google, typed the word 'communism', clicked the top link and then copied and pasted the text. You seem to be boasting that this is within your capabilities but outside mine, but from my perspective this really isn't much of a boast. Copying and pasting into a conversation t'he definition' of a political philosophy, whose proponents all have different takes on 'how it could work', but which has failed with every attempt at practical implementation, is the sort of thing a fool would do, Rather than talking about "the definition of communism", it makes far more sense to talk about communismBut that's the problem. Your own definition of what constitutes communism seems to differ from what communism actually is. So anything you cut and paste would be irrelevant, especially if you cannot point out what part of it Zany is supposedly advertising There is no 'what communism actually is'. Nobody has caught a live one in the wild. It's a bit like asking what heaven actually is. There is a definition and people have opinions on the topic, but that's about it.
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Post by Saint on Sept 22, 2024 10:24:16 GMT
On your second point - When you say societies are becoming more 'socialistic', it's not entirely clear what you mean. You could be saying something that would include the notion that the US constitution is a socialistic document because it erased the legal distinctions of nobility and therefore made people 'more equal' in one sense. You could alternatively mean that governments are becoming more re-distributive in their approach. The latter observation, while true, comes with other observations - that the redistribution model looks increasing unsustainable, likely incompatible with democracy and appears to be accompanied by increasing inequality, rather than decreasing..I would make the prediction that, if western governments keep pursuing redistribution as a means to gain/take/maintain power, these societies are not going to transform into socialist paradises, but rather into third world tips run by warlords. It includes the American constitution and re-distributive approaches. Anything that has an equalising effect, really. I'm not sure that your prediction that that western industrialised states will become more like third world tips is correct. The trend is towards better conditions for everyone, not worse. Take a look at some photographs of life in the east end of London at the beginning of the last century. Things have improved.
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Post by Orac on Sept 22, 2024 10:31:12 GMT
I think ithis betrays a kind 'final state' thinking - that the world is heading to 'finished state' in which all the substantial problems are solved. - that, when 'capitalism' (free exchange) solves all the problems, things will just flatl-ine into a state that can be 'managed' in the same way you would manage a warehouse or stock levels in a supermarket. Yes, it betrays a kind of final state thinking. Marx's dialectic is a variation/inversion of Hegel's thinking, which, as you probably know, presents a sort of historical journey to a final destination. It has striking similarities to many religions and perhaps even appeals to the same human needs
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Post by Orac on Sept 22, 2024 10:58:30 GMT
On your second point - When you say societies are becoming more 'socialistic', it's not entirely clear what you mean. You could be saying something that would include the notion that the US constitution is a socialistic document because it erased the legal distinctions of nobility and therefore made people 'more equal' in one sense. You could alternatively mean that governments are becoming more re-distributive in their approach. The latter observation, while true, comes with other observations - that the redistribution model looks increasing unsustainable, likely incompatible with democracy and appears to be accompanied by increasing inequality, rather than decreasing..I would make the prediction that, if western governments keep pursuing redistribution as a means to gain/take/maintain power, these societies are not going to transform into socialist paradises, but rather into third world tips run by warlords. It includes the American constitution and re-distributive approaches. Anything that has an equalising effect, really. i'm not going too argue too hard here because it is just semantics, but I don't this a useful way to understand socialism vs everything else. A war between two absolute monarchs can have an 'equalising effect', but it wouldn't be normally understood as an implementation of socialistic principle. It also creates paradoxes. Imagine a situation in which there were a class who could redistribute resources how they saw fit. According to you, a reform that would prevent this redistribution by removing these people's special status and giving everyone equal rights over only their own property, would be socialistic. A socialistic reform that made socialistic redistribution illegal.
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Post by Saint on Sept 22, 2024 11:08:15 GMT
It includes the American constitution and re-distributive approaches. Anything that has an equalising effect, really. i'm not going too argue too hard here because it is just semantics, but I don't this a useful way to understand socialism vs everything else. A war between two absolute monarchs can have an 'equalising effect', but it wouldn't be normally understood as an implementation of socialistic principle. It also creates paradoxes. Imagine a situation in which there were a class who could redistribute resources how they saw fit. According to you, a reform that would prevent this redistribution by removing these people's special status and giving everyone equal rights over only their own property, would be socialistic. A socialistic reform that made socialistic redistribution illegal. You're overthinking things. Just think of it as a society where there is increasing equality of rights.
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Post by Saint on Sept 22, 2024 11:09:12 GMT
Yes, it betrays a kind of final state thinking. Marx's dialectic is a variation/inversion of Hegel's thinking, which, as you probably know, presents a sort of historical journey to a final destination. It has striking similarities to many religions and perhaps even appeals to the same human needs I think it was a more of an observation of history.
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Sept 22, 2024 11:37:44 GMT
It is very wrong to conflate the very different socialism and communism. The more demented and dishonest USA politicians do it regularly.
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Post by Saint on Sept 22, 2024 11:54:58 GMT
It is very wrong to conflate the very different socialism and communism. The more demented and dishonest USA politicians do it regularly. Just to be clear, I'm not equating the two. But Marx saw socialism as the gateway to communism.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2024 13:13:11 GMT
But that's the problem. Your own definition of what constitutes communism seems to differ from what communism actually is. So anything you cut and paste would be irrelevant, especially if you cannot point out what part of it Zany is supposedly advertising There is no 'what communism actually is'. Nobody has caught a live one in the wild. It's a bit like asking what heaven actually is. There is a definition and people have opinions on the topic, but that's about it. Well your interpretation of what it is seems to encompass anything to the left of the Daily Mail, and seems rather like reds under the beds McCarthyism to me. Some sort of clarification from you might have proven me wrong but instead only insults. If a single paragraph definition of what you personally regard communism to be is too much to ask, then could you at least explain which aspects of communism you think Zany is prone to advertising? Because I have not seem him advertising anything remotely communist. A little less inequality perhaps. A fairer deal for the poor for sure, but definitely within the framework of the capitalist system. Dictatorship of the proletariat it is not. Nor workers of the world unite. Nor class war against the ruling classes and the bourgeoisie. In fact he is probably a member of the latter. Occasional mild leanings in the direction of democratic socialism is the most he can reasonably be accused of advertising and even that is a stretch. But I guess to a reds under the bed McCarthyite, that is all it takes to be a communist, lol
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