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Post by Zany on Sept 8, 2024 14:51:52 GMT
So ignore the 1945 map and look at more recent times.. Then tell me which land grabs were considered legal by the rest of the world, Answering you original point again, if things were left to follow a natural path Israel would ne Arabic now. Its only Americas support and arms that stopped that happening. In return they expect Israel to behave like a civilised country, Would you like America and the West to allow natural paths to be followed? No - the natural path is for a war to continue until one of the antagonists is rendered unable, or stably reluctant, to pursue their aims. The natural path would mean, the 'Palestinians' wouldn't get to declare war, and then lose five times in a row, and still be able to declare war again It might be convenient for your argument to make it just the Palestinians against the Israelis, but it doesn't make it so. Without America's protection Syria and Iran would be involved, at the very least. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2024 22:24:32 GMT
The Israelis in the past were unfairly attacked by Arab nations who wanted to wipe them out, sadly, now the oppressed have become the oppressors
It's absolutely atrocious the way things often revolve around and this happens so often through history
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Post by Orac on Sept 10, 2024 7:13:53 GMT
No - the natural path is for a war to continue until one of the antagonists is rendered unable, or stably reluctant, to pursue their aims. The natural path would mean, the 'Palestinians' wouldn't get to declare war, and then lose five times in a row, and still be able to declare war again It might be convenient for your argument to make it just the Palestinians against the Israelis, but it doesn't make it so. Without America's protection Syria and Iran would be involved, at the very least. It's not 'convenient for my argument' and i'm not sp[specifically ignoring the broader genocidal tendencies of the middle east. Unfortunately, the only way to untangle this is to corner these populations into forming responsible governments.- ie by offering them a stark alternative |
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Post by Zany on Sept 10, 2024 8:54:18 GMT
It might be convenient for your argument to make it just the Palestinians against the Israelis, but it doesn't make it so. Without America's protection Syria and Iran would be involved, at the very least. It's not 'convenient for my argument' and i'm not sp[specifically ignoring the broader genocidal tendencies of the middle east. Unfortunately, the only way to untangle this is to corner these populations into forming responsible governments.- ie by offering them a stark alternative Does that apply to Israel as well? Should they be forced to behave like the civilised world or face being left to the wolves? |
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Post by Orac on Sept 10, 2024 9:45:38 GMT
It's not 'convenient for my argument' and i'm not sp[specifically ignoring the broader genocidal tendencies of the middle east. Unfortunately, the only way to untangle this is to corner these populations into forming responsible governments.- ie by offering them a stark alternative Does that apply to Israel as well? Potentially.yes If Israel is given proper borders and its neighbors respect its right to exist and afford her normal diplomatic relationships, then, if the Israel government sends Muslim burning raiding parties over its neighbours' borders or declares a total war of annihilation continuously, then it needs to face un-cushioned consequences |
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Post by Zany on Sept 10, 2024 16:44:16 GMT
Does that apply to Israel as well? Potentially.yes If Israel is given proper borders and its neighbors respect its right to exist and afford her normal diplomatic relationships, then, if the Israel government sends Muslim burning raiding parties over its neighbours' borders or declares a total war of annihilation continuously, then it needs to face un-cushioned consequences Should those proper borders include or exclude the land they have stolen? Your perpetual attempts at painting only one side as evil does nothing for me at all. |
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Post by Orac on Sept 10, 2024 22:52:00 GMT
Potentially.yes If Israel is given proper borders and its neighbors respect its right to exist and afford her normal diplomatic relationships, then, if the Israel government sends Muslim burning raiding parties over its neighbours' borders or declares a total war of annihilation continuously, then it needs to face un-cushioned consequences Should those proper borders include or exclude the land they have stolen? Just a reminder - you declared war and then lost (several times)It seems a bit weird (unnatural) that you get to draw up long lists of demands |
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Post by Zany on Sept 11, 2024 8:51:38 GMT
Should those proper borders include or exclude the land they have stolen? Just a reminder - you declared war and then lost (several times)It seems a bit weird (unnatural) that you get to draw up long lists of demands A reminder that was a very long time ago. And you didn't answer my question. Does that apply to Israel as well? Should they be forced to behave like the civilised world or face being left to the wolves? |
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Steve
Hero Protagonist
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Post by Steve on Sept 11, 2024 9:33:26 GMT
Should those proper borders include or exclude the land they have stolen? Just a reminder - you declared war and then lost (several times)It seems a bit weird (unnatural) that you get to draw up long lists of demands Interesting use of the word 'you' I say interesting but it looks very much like racial stereotyping. |
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Post by Orac on Sept 14, 2024 8:51:47 GMT
Just a reminder - you declared war and then lost (several times)It seems a bit weird (unnatural) that you get to draw up long lists of demands A reminder that was a very long time ago. And you didn't answer my question. Does that apply to Israel as well? Should they be forced to behave like the civilised world or face being left to the wolves? No - it's current. The 'Palestinians' as a political entity have never agreed to and kept terms for their surrender |
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Post by Zany on Sept 14, 2024 9:08:59 GMT
A reminder that was a very long time ago. And you didn't answer my question. Does that apply to Israel as well? Should they be forced to behave like the civilised world or face being left to the wolves? No - it's current. The 'Palestinians' as a political entity have never agreed to and kept terms for their surrender Its difficult to have a conversation if you keep jumping back and forth in history while only comparing changes on one side. The Palestinians did not make war on Israel, that was Egypt Syria and Jordan. Since then Israel have seized evermore of the land that the rest of the world recognise as belonging to Palestinians. Nothing to do with that ancient war. Can anyone imagine the argument that we should be allowed to take parts of Germany because they went to war with us years ago. Or perhaps we should take chunks of Argentina because they invaded the Falklands. |
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Steve
Hero Protagonist
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Post by Steve on Sept 14, 2024 9:52:05 GMT
A reminder that was a very long time ago. And you didn't answer my question. Does that apply to Israel as well? Should they be forced to behave like the civilised world or face being left to the wolves? No - it's current. The 'Palestinians' as a political entity have never agreed to and kept terms for their surrender Have you really never heard of the Oslo Accords? |
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Post by Orac on Sept 15, 2024 12:51:05 GMT
No - it's current. The 'Palestinians' as a political entity have never agreed to and kept terms for their surrender Can anyone imagine the argument that we should be allowed to take parts of Germany because they went to war with us years ago. Or perhaps we should take chunks of Argentina because they invaded the Falklands. I recall Germany surrendering unconditionally and her population co-operating with this decision. I';m trying to imagine an alternate timeline in which V2 rockets are launched at London from Berlin hospital roofs and the Germans are building tunnels in to France to kill Jews |
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Post by Zany on Sept 15, 2024 12:57:23 GMT
Can anyone imagine the argument that we should be allowed to take parts of Germany because they went to war with us years ago. Or perhaps we should take chunks of Argentina because they invaded the Falklands. I recall Germany surrendering unconditionally and her population co-operating with this decision. I';m trying to imagine an alternate timeline in which V2 rockets are launched at London from Berlin hospital roofs and the Germans are building tunnels in to France to kill Jews But the terms were acceptable. That's the point, we didn't say you lost so we hold the right to take your lands as we want and treat your citizens badly. We tried that after the first world war and we know how our defeated enemy reacted. |
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Post by Orac on Sept 19, 2024 17:42:28 GMT
I recall Germany surrendering unconditionally and her population co-operating with this decision. I';m trying to imagine an alternate timeline in which V2 rockets are launched at London from Berlin hospital roofs and the Germans are building tunnels in to France to kill Jews But the terms were acceptable There were no 'terms' Unconditional surrender has no terms. In diplomatic terms, one of the antagonists no longer exists |
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