Post by Robert on Nov 25, 2024 19:56:48 GMT
I can't say I have found Robert's defence of Israel actions at all convincing. The situation in that part of the world is of course complex and Israel is surrounded by hostile states, perhaps not surprising given the circumstances of its creation. Security is probably a more real issue for Israel than us in the relative security of the west can understand. I have visited Israel and found it to be a surprisingly beautiful country with fascinating history even to one who is not religious. For me the actions of the Israeli government towards the Palestinians both in Gaza and the West Bank over many years have been not only disgraceful from a humanitarian government but hopelessly counter productive for their own interests. The hatred the indiscriminate killing of Gazan children and in Beirut and the tolerance of settler abuse of local palestinians inevitably creates loathing amongst the survivors that perpetuates the conflict. The appalling attack on October 7th roots come from a context of past abuses. The disgraceful response simply breeds more hatred and makes the next October 7th an inevitability although perhaps not on the same scale.
The behaviour of the Israeli government and indeed the Buddhist Myanmar government towards the Rohingya shows that this is not ultimately a matter of religion, it is a failing of humanity. Israel is protected by the USA due to the power of the Jewish lobby there. It has created an excessively powerful human tribe and where you get excessively powerful human tribes, they tend to resort to shameless bullying of the less powerful. The Jewish people are just human beings. Jews were dreadfully oppressed across much of Europe for generations leading to the dreadful events in Germany in the 1930s/40s. You would like to think that those experiences would influence that grouping behaviour in the future. But I am afraid that is not the case. The creation of the Jewish state and its support from the "world policeman" USA has created a situation where jews in Israel are all powerful and they oppress and bully and kill other tribes less strong than themselves. We are all human and humans are a pretty horrible species.
Contributor "dappy" wrote about me:
"[...] state paid actors tasked with influencing forums. Obviously can't be sure whether Robert is or is not one of those. The fact he posts on purely one subject - defending the actions of Israel - and is unable to deviate in any way from the official line [...]":
I have no connections with Israel.
I am not paid.
I have no idea what the Israeli "official line" on such matters is, and my posts are unlikely to be consistent with any such "official" line.
For example, I criticize the description "settlers" because all that description does is re-enforce the views of anti-Israel people. Israel is the ancestral-homeland of the Jewish people, including Judah and Samaria ("West Bank") so the Jews who come to live there are either returnee-exiles or of those whose families managed to remain in the land of Israel since Biblical times despite foreign invasion and occupation. Such people then are not "settlers", but are villagers / townsfolk.
On other websites I've also been accused of reading-up on, or copying from, Israeli literature;
I've never read any of that, but carried out my own research.
I started out by believing there must be two cases, but found that whereas the Israeli case can be proven from objective and internationally accepted historical evidence, the Palestinian Arab claims cannot be verified.
Contributor "dappy" also wrote about me:
"[...] perhaps he [Robert] is in which case its quite an honour for our little forum to be noticed [...]":
It is a privilege to be here. Contributor will find that I always answer the post, not the author of the post; out of respect.
Contributor "dappy" wrote about me:
"I can't say I have found Robert's defence of Israel actions at all convincing.":
The author of the post to which I direct my responses, is not expected to find my responses "convincing", because I do not seek to change the author's mind; my responses are directed to the general reader / community in general. I respect the author's opinion.
I find that when contributors turn to making personal remarks, this may sometimes be due to them lacking verifiable-argument in response.
Contributor "dappy" wrote:
"[...] the actions of the Israeli government towards the Palestinians both in Gaza and the West Bank over many years [...] The behaviour of the Israeli government [...]":
Palestinian Arab propaganda false-complaints of:
“oppression” / “persecution” / “discrimination” / “(mis) treatment” / “racism” / “being treated as 2nd class”: Is Palestinian frustration at Israeli security measures obstructing the on-going Palestinian war of ethnic-hatred against Israeli Jews.
While Israeli security measures are due to the “Palestinian” Arab anti-Jewish war of ethnic-hatred (see below) carried out for Palestinian territorial-ambition, “Palestinian” Arab propaganda falsely-accuses Israel / the Jews of “oppression” so as to create a hoax of “Persecution to try to dishonestly-invoke and misuse the Islamic rules on defence against persecution of Islam, and deceive other Muslims into supporting them.
The Palestinian Arabs cynically whitewash their anti-Jewish hate-war as:
“uprising”, “defence”, “desperation”, “struggle”, “resistance”.
If a Palestinian Arab terrorist murders an Israeli Jew and the terrorist is imprisoned by Israel, the “Palestinian Authority” aka “Fatah” and the “Palestinian Liberation Organisation” (the P.A. funded by the “European Union” and the U.S.A.), pay a reward-“pension” to the family of the attacker:
‘The Palestinian Authority Martyrs Fund are two funds operated by the Palestinian Authority (PA). The Foundation for the Care of the Families of Martyrs pays monthly cash stipends to the families of Palestinians killed, injured, or imprisoned while carrying out violence against Israel.[1] The Prisoners Fund makes disbursements to Palestinians imprisoned in Israeli jails. In 2016, the PA paid out about NIS 1.1 billion (US$303 million) in stipends and other benefits.[2]
Critics often call the fund "pay for slay" and blame the payments for encouraging terrorism. [...]’
(Please see webpage for citations.)
Extract source:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_Martyrs_Fund
Critics often call the fund "pay for slay" and blame the payments for encouraging terrorism. [...]’
(Please see webpage for citations.)
Extract source:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_Martyrs_Fund
Examples from the “Palestinian” Arab on-going anti-Jewish hate-war, where their propaganda typically refers to any consequential security measures as “Israeli-oppression”:
'23 August 2019 ... Israeli girl ... Rina Shnerb [age 17 was killed; she] had been hiking with her brother Dvir and her father Eitan near a natural spring outside Dolev when an improvised explosive device blew up.':
Extract source:
www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-49447035
Extract source:
www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-49447035
Israeli girl, Hallel Yaffa Ariel, aged 13, fatally stabbed in her bedroom in West Bank by a Palestinian terrorist, June 30, 2016, The Guardian:
www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/30/israeli-girl-13-stabbed-bedroom-west-bank-kiryat-arba
Description of attacks including Palestinian Arab terrorist attacks in Judah and Samaria ("West Bank") by year:
www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/comprehensive-listing-of-terrorism-victims-in-israel
Contributor "dappy" also wrote:
"[...] indiscriminate killing of Gazan children and in Beirut [...]":
Israel does not target civilians let alone children. It is typical for terrorists such as Hamas and Hezbollah to locate themselves in, or make use of, civilian infrastructure. Israel often gives warnings to civilians to vacate the immediate combat zone.
Contributor "dappy" wrote:
"[...] settler abuse of local palestinians [...]":
This is what I will refer to as "time-preference" bias:
This is where contributors and also biased Media choose to ignore the prior-terrorism perpetrated by the Palestinian Arabs upon Jewish villagers in Judah and Samaria ("West Bank").
Description of attacks including Palestinian Arab terrorist attacks in Judah and Samaria ("West Bank") by year:
See Link above.
Contributor "dappy" also wrote:
"[...] perpetuates the conflict. The appalling attack on October 7th roots come from a context of past abuses [...]":
I assume this refers to Palestinian Arab radicalization.
No, the Palestinian Arabs are not radicalized by any Israeli responses, but are intentionally-radicalized by their Palestinian Arab education system:
European Parliament 2019 discharge resolution expresses concern about Palestinian education for teaching hatred:
[Major heading:] “9. European Parliament resolution of 29 April 2021 with observations forming an integral part of the decisions on discharge in respect of the implementation of the general budget of the European Union for the financial year 2019, Section III – Commission and executive agencies (2020/2140(DEC))”
[...]
'444. Is concerned about the hate speech and violence taught in Palestinian school textbooks and used in schools by UNRWA [“United Nations Relief and Works Agency”]; is concerned about the effectiveness of UNRWA’s mechanisms of adherence to UN [“United Nations”] values in educational materials used and taught by UNRWA staff in its schools, which contain hate speech and incitement to violence; insists that UNRWA acts in full transparency and publishes in an open-source platform all its educational materials for teachers and students, as well as its reviews of host country textbooks used to ensure that content adheres to UN values and does not encourage hatred; requests that all school material, which is not in compliance with these standards be removed immediately; insists that the earmarking of EU [“European Union”] funding such as PEGASE
[“PEGASE” - French acronym for: Mécanisme, “Palestino - Européen de Gestion et d'Aide Socio-Economique” (Palestinian-European, Socio-Economic Management and Assistance Mechanism.]
for salaries paid to teachers and public servants in the education sector must be made conditional on educational material and course content complying with UNESCO [“United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization”] standards of peace, tolerance, coexistence, and non-violence, as was decided upon by Union [“European Union”] education ministers in Paris on 17 March 2015; [...]'
Extract source:
www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/TA-9-2021-0164_EN.html
[...]
'444. Is concerned about the hate speech and violence taught in Palestinian school textbooks and used in schools by UNRWA [“United Nations Relief and Works Agency”]; is concerned about the effectiveness of UNRWA’s mechanisms of adherence to UN [“United Nations”] values in educational materials used and taught by UNRWA staff in its schools, which contain hate speech and incitement to violence; insists that UNRWA acts in full transparency and publishes in an open-source platform all its educational materials for teachers and students, as well as its reviews of host country textbooks used to ensure that content adheres to UN values and does not encourage hatred; requests that all school material, which is not in compliance with these standards be removed immediately; insists that the earmarking of EU [“European Union”] funding such as PEGASE
[“PEGASE” - French acronym for: Mécanisme, “Palestino - Européen de Gestion et d'Aide Socio-Economique” (Palestinian-European, Socio-Economic Management and Assistance Mechanism.]
for salaries paid to teachers and public servants in the education sector must be made conditional on educational material and course content complying with UNESCO [“United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization”] standards of peace, tolerance, coexistence, and non-violence, as was decided upon by Union [“European Union”] education ministers in Paris on 17 March 2015; [...]'
Extract source:
www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/TA-9-2021-0164_EN.html
Contributor "dappy" wrote:
"[...] Jews were dreadfully oppressed across much of Europe for generations leading to the dreadful events in Germany in the 1930s/40s. You would like to think that those experiences would influence that grouping behaviour in the future. But I am afraid that is not the case. [...]":
This is similar to the pro Palestinian Arab propaganda which compares the Jews to the Nazis. Now I appreciate the contributor is not "saying" that, but it does have that connotation.
It is not the Jews/Israel mistreating or being inappropriately aggressive to the Arabs, but the Palestinian Arabs who:
carry out terrorism and war to achieve their unverifiable territorial ambitions;
Palestinian Arab land claims devoid of any objective historical verification;
and where any alleged suffering by the Palestinian Arabs is due entirely to their own policies and behaviour towards their own people,
and to the hatred against Israel/Jews taught by the Palestinian Arab education system.
Contributor "dappy" also uses four times the word "powerful":
Israel is just defending themselves.
On October 7th, 2023 it was seen what will happen if Israel ever ceases to do so.
Robert
