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Post by Zany on Sept 1, 2024 9:26:09 GMT
You probably all knew this, but if Netanyahu signs a peace deal he will be forced to resign by the hard right and then return to court on serious charges of bribery and corruption.
I have always felt the Hamas attack was allowed to happen, because of the slowness of the military response. Is this the reason it happened?
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Post by Orac on Sept 1, 2024 10:39:39 GMT
Well, who can tell us now which of the two films is 'correct'?
It's quite likely neither is correct.
I think this situation, like the Ukraine one, is the result of trying to force an un-natural situation - ie to force water up a waterfall.
Given the regional forces the naturalistic resolution (currently) is for Israel to exist and for the Muslims who cannot live with its existence to be cornered into pursuing rational demands (their own area from which they do not launch attacks). With this in place we will be able to see what forces like Netanyahu really are.
People's unwillingness to pursue this sort of issue with Muslims and the corruption of international 'institutions' is at the base of why this cannot start. Now the whole thing is buried under 60 foot of woke concrete.
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Post by Zany on Sept 1, 2024 13:43:35 GMT
Well, who can tell us now which of the two films is 'correct'? It's quite likely neither is correct. I think this situation, like the Ukraine one, is the result of trying to force an un-natural situation - ie to force water up a waterfall. Given the regional forces the naturalistic resolution (currently) is for Israel to exist and for the Muslims who cannot live with its existence to be cornered into pursuing rational demands (their own area from which they do not launch attacks). With this in place we will be able to see what forces like Netanyahu really are. People's unwillingness to pursue this sort of issue with Muslims and the corruption of international 'institutions' is at the base of why this cannot start. Now the whole thing is buried under 60 foot of woke concrete. The natural form of events (Not pushing water up hill) would have been for Israel and the middle East to have been decimated in a nuclear war many years ago. The reason the West is trying to stop the natural course of events is that the result would be catastrophic. All the rest (Americas unwavering support, Iran's involvement, Netanyahu's gaming etc) are a result of trying to stop natural events. Nothing to do with Woke. Question is: Will America continue to support him however far he goes? |
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Post by Orac on Sept 1, 2024 14:21:30 GMT
Well, who can tell us now which of the two films is 'correct'? It's quite likely neither is correct. I think this situation, like the Ukraine one, is the result of trying to force an un-natural situation - ie to force water up a waterfall. Given the regional forces the naturalistic resolution (currently) is for Israel to exist and for the Muslims who cannot live with its existence to be cornered into pursuing rational demands (their own area from which they do not launch attacks). With this in place we will be able to see what forces like Netanyahu really are. People's unwillingness to pursue this sort of issue with Muslims and the corruption of international 'institutions' is at the base of why this cannot start. Now the whole thing is buried under 60 foot of woke concrete. The natural form of events (Not pushing water up hill) would have been for Israel and the middle East to have been decimated in a nuclear war many years ago. The reason the West is trying to stop the natural course of events is that the result would be catastrophic. All the rest (Americas unwavering support, Iran's involvement, Netanyahu's gaming etc) are a result of trying to stop natural events. Nothing to do with Woke. No I don't think that's true. Much of the middle east (in the immediate vicinity) doesn't give that much of shit about Israel - and is quite capable politically of accommodating its presence. There is a small group that wont come to an accommodation. The natural course of events would be for this group to find its stance untenable - ie ending up being defeated |
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Post by Zany on Sept 1, 2024 15:01:40 GMT
The natural form of events (Not pushing water up hill) would have been for Israel and the middle East to have been decimated in a nuclear war many years ago. The reason the West is trying to stop the natural course of events is that the result would be catastrophic. All the rest (Americas unwavering support, Iran's involvement, Netanyahu's gaming etc) are a result of trying to stop natural events. Nothing to do with Woke. No I don't think that's true. Much of the middle east (in the immediate vicinity) doesn't give that much of shit about Israel - and is quite capable politically of accommodating its presence. There is a small group that wont come to an accommodation. The natural course of events would be for this group to find its stance untenable - ie ending up being defeated It doesn't give a shit because it knows giving a shit would involve taking on the Red White and Blue. The result is a permanent stalemate with countries quietly funding Hezbolah etc and Israel stealing land and water from its neighbours while under the protection of the States. Can I ask how you think this would end if the UN and other WOKES stopped interfering? Or How it would end if America said enough, no more support? |
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Post by Orac on Sept 1, 2024 15:15:35 GMT
No I don't think that's true. Much of the middle east (in the immediate vicinity) doesn't give that much of shit about Israel - and is quite capable politically of accommodating its presence. There is a small group that wont come to an accommodation. The natural course of events would be for this group to find its stance untenable - ie ending up being defeated Can I ask how you think this would end if the UN and other WOKES stopped interfering? Or How it would end if America said enough, no more support? The first scenario - conflict with no political 'safety net' - would likely corner the Gazans into creating a responsible leadership that came to a arrangement with Israel that it enforced. (giving Israel no excuse to intervene - ie like aspects of a typical relationship between mature nations) The second scenario would probably result in a middle east nuclear war |
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Post by Zany on Sept 1, 2024 16:08:10 GMT
Can I ask how you think this would end if the UN and other WOKES stopped interfering? Or How it would end if America said enough, no more support? The first scenario - conflict with no political 'safety net' - would likely corner the Gazans into creating a responsible leadership that came to a arrangement with Israel that it enforced. (giving Israel no excuse to intervene - ie like aspects of a typical relationship between mature nations) The second scenario would probably result in a middle east nuclear war You genuinely believe that the Palestinians would be pragmatic with Israel, having watched them steal thousands of miles of their land in the West bank and forced them all into a tiny strip along the coast? You think the Palestinians don't support Hezbollah, don't mind losing their olive groves to the Israelis while being beaten up by the police for objecting? I'm gob smacked. |
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Post by Orac on Sept 1, 2024 16:28:28 GMT
The first scenario - conflict with no political 'safety net' - would likely corner the Gazans into creating a responsible leadership that came to a arrangement with Israel that it enforced. (giving Israel no excuse to intervene - ie like aspects of a typical relationship between mature nations) The second scenario would probably result in a middle east nuclear war You genuinely believe that the Palestinians would be pragmatic with Israel, having watched them steal thousands of miles of their land Presently, Gazans are not firing artillery at Israel with the hope of militarily defeating Israel , they are doing so in the hope that Israel will be trapped and humiliated by things like the UN. Take away that prospect entirely and they have no rational motivation - ie it would become obvious to the dumbest rock that policing a stable arrangement serves their interests better. |
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Post by Zany on Sept 1, 2024 18:28:46 GMT
You genuinely believe that the Palestinians would be pragmatic with Israel, having watched them steal thousands of miles of their land Presently, Gazans are not firing artillery at Israel with the hope of militarily defeating Israel , they are doing so in the hope that Israel will be trapped and humiliated by things like the UN. Take away that prospect entirely and they have no rational motivation - ie it would become obvious to the dumbest rock that policing a stable arrangement serves their interests better. Do you think this applies to Ukraine as well? Perhaps you should inform the Chechnyan fighters I mean clearly the IRA saw sense and gave up when they were outgunned and the UN didn't support them. |
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Post by Orac on Sept 1, 2024 19:34:36 GMT
Presently, Gazans are not firing artillery at Israel with the hope of militarily defeating Israel , they are doing so in the hope that Israel will be trapped and humiliated by things like the UN. Take away that prospect entirely and they have no rational motivation - ie it would become obvious to the dumbest rock that policing a stable arrangement serves their interests better. I mean clearly the IRA saw sense and gave up when they were outgunned and the UN didn't support them. They didn't give up, but they clearly weren't the government of the Irish republic and they didn't get to launch missiles at London from Dublin.. They had to hide everything they were doing from just about everyone. If what had happened on 7 October, were an operation carried by by the IRA, and UK citizens had been the ones kidnapped, the criminals involved would not have received hero's welcome, there would be no public celebrations and the Irish police and security services would have hunted them down. |
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Post by Zany on Sept 1, 2024 19:52:18 GMT
I mean clearly the IRA saw sense and gave up when they were outgunned and the UN didn't support them. They didn't give up, but they clearly weren't the government of the Irish republic and they didn't get to launch missiles at London from Dublin.. They had to hide everything they were doing from just about everyone. If what had happened on 7 October, were an operation carried by by the IRA, and UK citizens had been the ones kidnapped, the criminals involved would not have received hero's welcome, there would be no public celebrations and the Irish police and security services would have hunted them down. Ah well you need to look at the history. I assume we are talking Hamas now? They won over Fatah because the people were pushed beyond peaceful solutions. Fatah were unable to peacefully negotiate anything with Israel who were not interested in any compromise at all. |
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Post by Orac on Sept 1, 2024 20:07:49 GMT
They didn't give up, but they clearly weren't the government of the Irish republic and they didn't get to launch missiles at London from Dublin.. They had to hide everything they were doing from just about everyone. If what had happened on 7 October, were an operation carried by by the IRA, and UK citizens had been the ones kidnapped, the criminals involved would not have received hero's welcome, there would be no public celebrations and the Irish police and security services would have hunted them down. Ah well you need to look at the history. I assume we are talking Hamas now? They won over Fatah because the people were pushed beyond peaceful solutions. Fatah were unable to peacefully negotiate anything with Israel who were not interested in any compromise at all. I didn't say that doing this would get everything Hamas wants. If that's your minimum requirement,. you need to think about joining Hamas. You presented position suggested strongly you just wanted Israel to stop intervening. |
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Post by Zany on Sept 1, 2024 20:13:13 GMT
Ah well you need to look at the history. I assume we are talking Hamas now? They won over Fatah because the people were pushed beyond peaceful solutions. Fatah were unable to peacefully negotiate anything with Israel who were not interested in any compromise at all. I didn't say that doing this would get everything Hamas wants. If that's your minimum requirement,. you need to think about joining Hamas. You presented position suggested strongly you just wanted Israel to stop intervening. I want Israel to obey international law. I want the international community to uphold the law and stop supporting their abhorrent behaviour and land stealing and pretending nothing is happening. |
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Post by Orac on Sept 1, 2024 21:32:09 GMT
I didn't say that doing this would get everything Hamas wants. If that's your minimum requirement,. you need to think about joining Hamas. You presented position suggested strongly you just wanted Israel to stop intervening. I want Israel to obey international law. I want the international community to uphold the law and stop supporting their abhorrent behaviour and land stealing and pretending nothing is happening. all the time it can be argued that this (whatever you feel it is) amounts to forcing Israel to lose a war of Jewish extermination (which is what Hams is conducting), this isn't remotely realistic or even moral. |
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Post by Zany on Sept 1, 2024 21:42:32 GMT
I want Israel to obey international law. I want the international community to uphold the law and stop supporting their abhorrent behaviour and land stealing and pretending nothing is happening. all the time it can be argued that this (whatever you feel it is) amounts to forcing Israel to lose a war of Jewish extermination (which is what Hams is conducting), this isn't remotely realistic or even moral. BS. No one has ever suggested the world end Israel. Just that they stop nicking other peoples land. Even Israelis want it stopped. |
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