Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2024 14:35:39 GMT
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Post by dappy on Aug 30, 2024 16:41:25 GMT
See second post on page 1 Zany. Yeah I get your point Dappy, but mine was different. Allow me to clarify. Mine is that the definition of serious crime for most folks obviously includes a lot of crime the authorities do not consider serious. We have had our various premises ram raided twice , broken into 4 times, robbed with violence (A staff member punched in the face several times), plus half a dozen internal thefts by staff over a 12 year period. Of these I would consider the ram raiding and the robbery with violence to be serious crimes, but the police didn't even investigate the ram raids and the violent theft received cursory attention. Because of this I am of the opinion that myself and the authorities disagree on what's acceptable and does not require a person being removed from society. Apprehending the criminal and sentencing the criminal if caught and convicted are two separate issues really Zany, Could you give us a little more detail on the two matters you regard as more serious. Was there CCTV of the ram raiders. If so did it capture the number plate of the vehicle (or was this stolen and left on scene) and a clear image of the perpetrators. Roughly what was the value and nature of goods stolen (booze and fags or cash machine??). Similarly for the robbery with assault, was there CCTV capturing the man’s face or were there enough witnesses to provide very good descriptions. How much was stolen. I presume the guy wasn’t able to be stopped leaving premises? |
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Post by dappy on Aug 30, 2024 16:46:52 GMT
Probation is yet another service that has more or less collapsed not helped by failing Graylings disastrous privatisation reforms. Meanwhile no rehabilitation work will have taken place while these offenders were locked up . Inevitable that some people released will reoffend - our reoffending rates are way above other comparable countries. Hard to see what the alternative is and remember all we are doing is releasing people a few months earlier than planned. If they had stayed in prison no rehabilitation work would have been done before their release so no real difference in practice. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2024 17:01:22 GMT
Probation is yet another service that has more or less collapsed not helped by failing Graylings disastrous privatisation reforms. Meanwhile no rehabilitation work will have taken place while these offenders were locked up . Inevitable that some people released will reoffend - our reoffending rates are way above other comparable countries. Hard to see what the alternative is and remember all we are doing is releasing people a few months earlier than planned. If they had stayed in prison no rehabilitation work would have been done before their release so no real difference in practice. Well no worries, I"m sure Lab's non-disastrous privatisation reforms were wonderful under Blair and will be wonderful under this govt too |
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Post by Zany on Aug 30, 2024 18:20:29 GMT
Yeah I get your point Dappy, but mine was different. Allow me to clarify. Mine is that the definition of serious crime for most folks obviously includes a lot of crime the authorities do not consider serious. We have had our various premises ram raided twice , broken into 4 times, robbed with violence (A staff member punched in the face several times), plus half a dozen internal thefts by staff over a 12 year period. Of these I would consider the ram raiding and the robbery with violence to be serious crimes, but the police didn't even investigate the ram raids and the violent theft received cursory attention. Because of this I am of the opinion that myself and the authorities disagree on what's acceptable and does not require a person being removed from society. Apprehending the criminal and sentencing the criminal if caught and convicted are two separate issues really Zany, Could you give us a little more detail on the two matters you regard as more serious. Was there CCTV of the ram raiders. If so did it capture the number plate of the vehicle (or was this stolen and left on scene) and a clear image of the perpetrators. Roughly what was the value and nature of goods stolen (booze and fags or cash machine??). Similarly for the robbery with assault, was there CCTV capturing the man’s face or were there enough witnesses to provide very good descriptions. How much was stolen. I presume the guy wasn’t able to be stopped leaving premises? Sorry Dappy, you seem more interested in whether the criminals could get caught, than whether its a serious crime. Cost wise the ram raiders got away with very little but caused about £8,000 quid worth of damage each time. The walk in assault and theft they took about 80 quid from the till. The CCTV saw their hoodies. Do you think these are serious crimes, they certainly feel serious when its you that has to pick up the pieces. |
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Post by equivocal on Aug 30, 2024 19:04:58 GMT
Probation is yet another service that has more or less collapsed not helped by failing Graylings disastrous privatisation reforms. Meanwhile no rehabilitation work will have taken place while these offenders were locked up . Inevitable that some people released will reoffend - our reoffending rates are way above other comparable countries. Hard to see what the alternative is and remember all we are doing is releasing people a few months earlier than planned. If they had stayed in prison no rehabilitation work would have been done before their release so no real difference in practice. I think the reality is the CJS is in chaos. The probation service is as you say with many vacancies and a high level of attrition. The Crown Court has a massive backlog with the numbers on remand havng doubled to 20% of the prison population over the last 10 years, our prisons are full to bursting and we read no end of complaints about the police failing to investigate crime. Yet in the face of all this, crime continues to fall. I find it difficult to reconcile the facts with the figures.
I should say I agree with most of what you say about community sentencing/intervention compared to prison, but I suspect your stiletto attacker would have been sent to prison in most jurisdictions, including the Netherlands.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2024 19:14:50 GMT
^ Excellent well rounded post.
That's kind of what I was hinting at earlier, many seemingly contradictory things can be true at once, makes it all very complex..
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Post by Zany on Aug 30, 2024 19:21:42 GMT
Probation is yet another service that has more or less collapsed not helped by failing Graylings disastrous privatisation reforms. Meanwhile no rehabilitation work will have taken place while these offenders were locked up . Inevitable that some people released will reoffend - our reoffending rates are way above other comparable countries. Hard to see what the alternative is and remember all we are doing is releasing people a few months earlier than planned. If they had stayed in prison no rehabilitation work would have been done before their release so no real difference in practice. I think the reality is the CJS is in chaos. The probation service is as you say with many vacancies and a high level of attrition. The Crown Court has a massive backlog with the numbers on remand havng doubled to 20% of the prison population over the last 10 years, our prisons are full to bursting and we read no end of complaints about the police failing to investigate crime. Yet in the face of all this, crime continues to fall. I find it difficult to reconcile the facts with the figures.
I should say I agree with most of what you say about community sentencing/intervention compared to prison, but I suspect your stiletto attacker would have been sent to prison in most jurisdictions, including the Netherlands.
I think a good percentage of the fall in crimes is that people don't bother to report them, everyone knows the police aren't interested. |
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Post by equivocal on Aug 30, 2024 19:25:23 GMT
I think the reality is the CJS is in chaos. The probation service is as you say with many vacancies and a high level of attrition. The Crown Court has a massive backlog with the numbers on remand havng doubled to 20% of the prison population over the last 10 years, our prisons are full to bursting and we read no end of complaints about the police failing to investigate crime. Yet in the face of all this, crime continues to fall. I find it difficult to reconcile the facts with the figures.
I should say I agree with most of what you say about community sentencing/intervention compared to prison, but I suspect your stiletto attacker would have been sent to prison in most jurisdictions, including the Netherlands.
I think a good percentage of the fall in crimes is that people don't bother to report them, everyone knows the police aren't interested. Could be, but the graph is from the CSEW which doesn't depend on reporting. |
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Post by Zany on Aug 30, 2024 19:28:10 GMT
I think a good percentage of the fall in crimes is that people don't bother to report them, everyone knows the police aren't interested. Could be, but the graph is from the CSEW which doesn't depend on reporting. How do they come to the estimates? |
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Aug 30, 2024 19:33:26 GMT
Apprehending the criminal and sentencing the criminal if caught and convicted are two separate issues really Zany, Could you give us a little more detail on the two matters you regard as more serious. Was there CCTV of the ram raiders. If so did it capture the number plate of the vehicle (or was this stolen and left on scene) and a clear image of the perpetrators. Roughly what was the value and nature of goods stolen (booze and fags or cash machine??). Similarly for the robbery with assault, was there CCTV capturing the man’s face or were there enough witnesses to provide very good descriptions. How much was stolen. I presume the guy wasn’t able to be stopped leaving premises? Sorry Dappy, you seem more interested in whether the criminals could get caught, than whether its a serious crime. Cost wise the ram raiders got away with very little but caused about £8,000 quid worth of damage each time. The walk in assault and theft they took about 80 quid from the till. The CCTV saw their hoodies. Do you think these are serious crimes, they certainly feel serious when its you that has to pick up the pieces. There is actually a legal definition of 'Serious Crime' the almost impenetrable Schedule 1 of the Serious Crimes Act It doesn't seem to include the crimes you listed which [Liz truss mode] is a disgrace [/mode] The powers that be need to take a long look at what happened in areas of Brazil where the police tended not to pursue crimes against shops unless they were bribed to do so. So some shops paid thugs incl some of the police to act as death squads killing the thieves who were often children. Think it couldn't happen here? It damn well could. |
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Post by equivocal on Aug 30, 2024 19:33:30 GMT
Could be, but the graph is from the CSEW which doesn't depend on reporting. How do they come to the estimates? I think it's survey based, but I've not read up on sample sizes etc. I've read it's thought to be the most reliable inicator we have. |
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Post by dappy on Aug 30, 2024 19:35:43 GMT
Apprehending the criminal and sentencing the criminal if caught and convicted are two separate issues really Zany, Could you give us a little more detail on the two matters you regard as more serious. Was there CCTV of the ram raiders. If so did it capture the number plate of the vehicle (or was this stolen and left on scene) and a clear image of the perpetrators. Roughly what was the value and nature of goods stolen (booze and fags or cash machine??). Similarly for the robbery with assault, was there CCTV capturing the man’s face or were there enough witnesses to provide very good descriptions. How much was stolen. I presume the guy wasn’t able to be stopped leaving premises? Sorry Dappy, you seem more interested in whether the criminals could get caught, than whether its a serious crime. Cost wise the ram raiders got away with very little but caused about £8,000 quid worth of damage each time. The walk in assault and theft they took about 80 quid from the till. The CCTV saw their hoodies. Do you think these are serious crimes, they certainly feel serious when its you that has to pick up the pieces. Zany. I don’t understand. You were complaining that the police didn’t investigate the crimes to your satisfaction but now complaining that I am trying to understand how realistic it was for the police to apprehend the perpetrators. Realistically unless there is CCTV of the ram raiders or a way of tracing the perpetrators from the vehicle or there is intelligence, it’s going to be very hard for the police to do much. Understand that is very frustrating for the victims though. I am not sure where the definition of serious crime is. Clearly it is a more serious crime than say speeding and not as serious as murder. Does the label matter? |
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Aug 30, 2024 19:37:15 GMT
. . I am not sure where the definition of serious crime is. . . 2 posts above your post |
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Post by Zany on Aug 30, 2024 19:41:22 GMT
Sorry Dappy, you seem more interested in whether the criminals could get caught, than whether its a serious crime. Cost wise the ram raiders got away with very little but caused about £8,000 quid worth of damage each time. The walk in assault and theft they took about 80 quid from the till. The CCTV saw their hoodies. Do you think these are serious crimes, they certainly feel serious when its you that has to pick up the pieces. There is actually a legal definition of 'Serious Crime' the almost impenetrable Schedule 1 of the Serious Crimes Act It doesn't seem to include the crimes you listed which [Liz truss mode] is a disgrace [/mode] The powers that be need to take a long look at what happened in areas of Brazil where the police tended not to pursue crimes against shops unless they were bribed to do so. So some shops paid thugs incl some of the police to act as death squads killing the thieves who were often children. Think it couldn't happen here? It damn well could. My company got threatened by the police for suggesting we put a dye release system in our entrances, so that if we were robbed again the police could recognise the bright blue criminals. They warned we would face prosecution for ABH if the thieves suffered any ill effects from being sprayed. Its crazy, if you don't want to get sprayed stay out of the building. |
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