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Post by dappy on Aug 29, 2024 20:24:57 GMT
I asked you for evidence that the possibility of prison acts as a deterrent to others. You have failed to provide any. Hardly surprising perhaps as all the available evidence seems to suggest it is no deterrent at all to people acting on the spur of the moment while drunk. You have supplied no evidence to suggest that the criminal justice system dealing with the offender by sending her to prison is the only or best way of giving the victim closure. That feels like a made up argument. As does "those who know the victim". With this particular offender, it is perhaps not necessary, but the evidence again is that sending less people to prison and instead spending the money on rehabilitation gives offenders a much better opportunity to reflect and reform. Our reoffending rate using predominantly prison is around 50%. The Dutch rate using predominantly rehabilitation is around 10%. Not hard to work out which system seems to be working better. Your arguments - seemingly with all due respect mostly knee jerk prejudice based rather than evidence based - have fallen apart at first inspection. Would you like to provide some evidence to back up your views (I suspect it simply doesn't exist) or reflect and come up with more considered arguments or perhaps even better and more credibly reflect and agree that you were simply wrong. I am still waiting for a credible answer to the simple question "what do we gain by locking up this woman?". Its been well known for years that the risk of getting caught is the main deterrent for crime. I disagree of your views of giving the victim closure, there are many incidents where the victims feel sentencing was far too lenient. Sending some criminals to prison simply takes them into the criminal world, but in those cases catching them earlier is the cure. In the case you cite this was not someone getting sucked into crime, this was someone with no self control who is a danger to the public. There is no evidence that this woman poses a danger to the public Zany. In fact far more likely that she is horrified at what she has done. Of course that doesn’t mitigate the impact of what she did do. |
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Post by dappy on Aug 29, 2024 20:26:45 GMT
Yes to some it's such a shame we locked up the Yorkshire Ripper. They think of all the truck driving he could have been doing for the country, the wife left abandoned etc etc when we could have just asked him to stop doing it. Lunacy You do realize Steve that when you make posts like this, it just makes you look like a fecking idiot. You are better than that mate. |
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Aug 29, 2024 20:26:50 GMT
There is no evidence that this woman poses a danger to the public Zany. In fact far more likely that she is horrified at what she has done. Of course that doesn’t mitigate the impact of what she did do. Apart from her having maimed another woman ruining her life you mean And you have the cheek to say others post like an idiot. |
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Aug 29, 2024 20:29:39 GMT
Yes to some it's such a shame we locked up the Yorkshire Ripper. They think of all the truck driving he could have been doing for the country, the wife left abandoned etc etc when we could have just asked him to stop doing it. Lunacy You do realize Steve that when you make posts like this, it just makes you look like a fecking idiot. You are better than that mate. No apologies for posting a fair example using your recommendations. If it looks ridiculous it's because your 'no punishment for serious crime' ideas are ridiculous. |
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Post by dappy on Aug 29, 2024 20:31:14 GMT
You are doubling down on making yourself look a fecking idiot now Steve. Suggest we leave it there.
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Aug 29, 2024 20:33:17 GMT
Not me that's pushed this 'no punishment for violent, maiming, life ruining crime' idea is it?
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Post by Zany on Aug 29, 2024 20:35:22 GMT
Sorry Dappy can't see it. It was dreadful to blind someone by repeatedly smashing them in the face with a stiletto. If a bloke did this we'd want him banged up for life. It’s not about sex of the offender Zany. It’s about what is best for society now. There is no doubt that the incident was dreadful and that there is permanent long term damage to the victim. Sadly that can’t be changed now. But society gains nothing in fact loses significantly by locking her up. It’s dumb. I disagree. It is partly about the sex of the offender, we fear other men because men have that aggression, so we more actively discourage it. But more importantly the prison sentence is a message to others, control your temper stop before you go too far. Remove the punishment you insult the victim and tell the offender its OK |
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Post by Zany on Aug 29, 2024 20:36:12 GMT
Yes to some it's such a shame we locked up the Yorkshire Ripper. They think of all the truck driving he could have been doing for the country, the wife left abandoned etc etc when we could have just asked him to stop doing it. Lunacy being silly now. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2024 20:39:44 GMT
A lot of dappy's suggestions have merit, the policies used in Norway and elsewhere actually do work, but yes, if you don't deter then that can be very bad for society too. It's hard to know what's right here, but in general a tempered policy of not being too right wing law and order and not going too far left as in Portland here in the states, where they "defunded" the police and released offenders is probably the smart way to go about things, I think.
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Aug 29, 2024 20:40:18 GMT
Yes to some it's such a shame we locked up the Yorkshire Ripper. They think of all the truck driving he could have been doing for the country, the wife left abandoned etc etc when we could have just asked him to stop doing it. Lunacy being silly now. It's the idea of no punishment for violent crime that's silly Zany |
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Post by dappy on Aug 29, 2024 20:47:50 GMT
It’s not about sex of the offender Zany. It’s about what is best for society now. There is no doubt that the incident was dreadful and that there is permanent long term damage to the victim. Sadly that can’t be changed now. But society gains nothing in fact loses significantly by locking her up. It’s dumb. I disagree. It is partly about the sex of the offender, we fear other men because men have that aggression, so we more actively discourage it. But more importantly the prison sentence is a message to others, control your temper stop before you go too far. Remove the punishment you insult the victim and tell the offender its OK I don’t think it is about the sex of the offender. Before we send anyone to prison we should ask ourselves “does society benefit from doing this?”. Sometimes of course the answer to that question will be yes but I would argue far less often than we currently do - as of course happens on the rest of Europe. No one is suggesting of course that no action is taken in respect of this case but we need to get away from the notion that any punishment apart from prison is soft or insulting the victim or letting the offender off. You have repeated the notion that somehow automatically sending people to prison for this sort of incident somehow deters others. It patently doesn’t. |
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Post by Zany on Aug 29, 2024 20:52:39 GMT
It's the idea of no punishment for violent crime that's silly Zany Yes, but letting off the Yorkshire ripper is sillier. |
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Post by Steve on Aug 29, 2024 20:55:30 GMT
I disagree. It is partly about the sex of the offender, we fear other men because men have that aggression, so we more actively discourage it. But more importantly the prison sentence is a message to others, control your temper stop before you go too far. Remove the punishment you insult the victim and tell the offender its OK I don’t think it is about the sex of the offender. Before we send anyone to prison we should ask ourselves “does society benefit from doing this?”. Sometimes of course the answer to that question will be yes but I would argue far less often than we currently do - as of course happens on the rest of Europe. No one is suggesting of course that no action is taken in respect of this case but we need to get away from the notion that any punishment apart from prison is soft or insulting the victim or letting the offender off. You have repeated the notion that somehow automatically sending people to prison for this sort of incident somehow deters others. It patently doesn’t. How would you ever know? Most people in Britain did not commit violent maiming crime yesterday, not this week, this year or indeed ever. And it would be a BIG mistake to suppose that punishment deterrents weren't a part of making that number of non violents so. Frankly if only one person is deterred from violent crime by seeing that this nasty woman has been jailed for her appalling action then that's a good thing. |
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Post by Zany on Aug 29, 2024 20:58:09 GMT
I disagree. It is partly about the sex of the offender, we fear other men because men have that aggression, so we more actively discourage it. But more importantly the prison sentence is a message to others, control your temper stop before you go too far. Remove the punishment you insult the victim and tell the offender its OK I don’t think it is about the sex of the offender. Before we send anyone to prison we should ask ourselves “does society benefit from doing this?”. Sometimes of course the answer to that question will be yes but I would argue far less often than we currently do - as of course happens on the rest of Europe. No one is suggesting of course that no action is taken in respect of this case but we need to get away from the notion that any punishment apart from prison is soft or insulting the victim or letting the offender off. You have repeated the notion that somehow automatically sending people to prison for this sort of incident somehow deters others. It patently doesn’t. Perhaps if you included an alternative for me to consider. Something you consider appropriate |
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Aug 29, 2024 20:58:14 GMT
It's the idea of no punishment for violent crime that's silly Zany Yes, but letting off the Yorkshire ripper is sillier. Well I never suggested such did I |
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