Steve
Hero Protagonist
Posts: 3,633
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Post by Steve on Aug 28, 2024 20:02:51 GMT
This doesn't suggest there's a chalk and cheese difference in crime rates per capita between the Uk and Netherlands. We're about 1/3 higher but then we have a much higher income inequality than they do and poverty and crime so often go together. Oh how true. Throughout history inequality equals crime. And every time we learn it, we unlearn it again. Question is are we willing to do something about our inequality? The sad answer is that as a society we never seem to. The 'have nots' tend to not want the system to change but to be on the 'have' side of it. But we should try |
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Post by Zany on Aug 28, 2024 20:15:50 GMT
You are comparing a two year period when nothing changed with the criminal justice system but Netherlands like us was recovering from Covid and coping with the cost of living crisis. The change to their criminal justice system came around 15-20 years ago. They sent less people to prison, they saved shedloads of money, they focused on rehabilitation, their reoffending rates dropped to 10% compared to our 50% and as a result crime fell and hence victims of crime fell. Let’s do the same. Whatever else is true. Mrs Zany and my visit to the Netherlands gave us an insight into how lovely a country could be. Happy, clean, well kept and looked after. Was our verdict |
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Post by Zany on Aug 28, 2024 20:19:51 GMT
Oh how true. Throughout history inequality equals crime. And every time we learn it, we unlearn it again. Question is are we willing to do something about our inequality? The sad answer is that as a society we never seem to. The 'have nots' tend to not want the system to change but to be on the 'have' side of it. But we should try I think governments job is to allow people to be rich beyond their wildest dreams while keeping a limit on inequality. I'm so glad you reflect this Steve. Well done mate. |
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Steve
Hero Protagonist
Posts: 3,633
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Post by Steve on Aug 28, 2024 21:16:10 GMT
Eh?
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Post by dappy on Aug 28, 2024 21:29:04 GMT
You are comparing a two year period when nothing changed with the criminal justice system but Netherlands like us was recovering from Covid and coping with the cost of living crisis. The change to their criminal justice system came around 15-20 years ago. They sent less people to prison, they saved shedloads of money, they focused on rehabilitation, their reoffending rates dropped to 10% compared to our 50% and as a result crime fell and hence victims of crime fell. Let’s do the same. Whatever else is true. Mrs Zany and my visit to the Netherlands gave us an insight into how lovely a country could be. Happy, clean, well kept and looked after. Was our verdict The last sentence is interesting Zany. I felt exactly the same after recentish visits to Spain, Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia. Perhaps it is not that they are happy clean well kept and looked after but that we are unhappy dirty and neglected. Have to say I am severely tempted to move abroad in a couple of years . |
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Post by Zany on Aug 28, 2024 21:47:04 GMT
Whatever else is true. Mrs Zany and my visit to the Netherlands gave us an insight into how lovely a country could be. Happy, clean, well kept and looked after. Was our verdict The last sentence is interesting Zany. I felt exactly the same after recentish visits to Spain, Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia. Perhaps it is not that they are happy clean well kept and looked after but that we are unhappy dirty and neglected. Have to say I am severely tempted to move abroad in a couple of years . If we didn't have all our friends around us here, I would be very tempted to start my business anew in Europe. |
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Post by Zany on Aug 28, 2024 21:48:51 GMT
It was meant as you read it Steve. That I am happy you recognise the need for inequality to be controlled and the wealth gap to be limited. |
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Steve
Hero Protagonist
Posts: 3,633
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Post by Steve on Aug 28, 2024 21:54:11 GMT
OK, ta.
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Post by dappy on Aug 29, 2024 8:24:05 GMT
Lets have a look at an example www.msn.com/en-gb/news/newsmanchester/mum-who-went-to-help-her-sister-in-city-centre-brawl-jailed-for-five-years/ar-AA1pCHNrCircumstances here seem to be Horrible physical violence causing permanent significant damage to victim Guilty party no previous convictions Mother to teenage child Does a responsible job in community (and volunteers in another worthwhile role) Unlikely to reoffend We are sentencing this offender to spend approx three years locked up at significant expense. Some would no doubt argue that with this level of violence and outcome, a custodial sentence is inevitable. I ask you though to reflect for a moment. What exactly have we achieved by doing so. |
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Steve
Hero Protagonist
Posts: 3,633
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Post by Steve on Aug 29, 2024 9:58:33 GMT
Lets have a look at an example www.msn.com/en-gb/news/newsmanchester/mum-who-went-to-help-her-sister-in-city-centre-brawl-jailed-for-five-years/ar-AA1pCHNrCircumstances here seem to be Horrible physical violence causing permanent significant damage to victim Guilty party no previous convictions Mother to teenage child Does a responsible job in community (and volunteers in another worthwhile role) Unlikely to reoffend We are sentencing this offender to spend approx three years locked up at significant expense. Some would no doubt argue that with this level of violence and outcome, a custodial sentence is inevitable. I ask you though to reflect for a moment. What exactly have we achieved by doing so.Deterring others, giving the victim a sense of closure, giving those that know the victim a sense of justice, giving her a chance to reflect and reform. From your own link: 'Ellie Brown left her victim permanently blind in one eye after the 'horrible' attack in Liverpool city centre, the Liverpool Echo reports. In court she was played footage of the altercation, which showed her repeatedly striking her victim in the face with her high heels after an argument erupted on the street.'While this may have been her first conviction it is hard to beleive this was her first offence. |
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Post by dappy on Aug 29, 2024 10:14:55 GMT
There is no evidence to suggest she has offended previously.
The very fact that this incident happened proves that the existing criminal justice system is not a deterrent.
It is not necessary to imprison the guilty party to provide closure for the victim.
There is no doubt this was a serious assault causing significant permanent damage to the victim. Would you like to have another go at showing what we have gained by putting the guilty party in jail?
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Steve
Hero Protagonist
Posts: 3,633
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Post by Steve on Aug 29, 2024 10:22:45 GMT
There is no evidence to suggest she has offended previously. The very fact that this incident happened proves that the existing criminal justice system is not a deterrent. It is not necessary to imprison the guilty party to provide closure for the victim. There is no doubt this was a serious assault causing significant permanent damage to the victim. Would you like to have another go at showing what we have gained by putting the guilty party in jail?As I said: 'Deterring others, giving the victim a sense of closure, giving those that know the victim a sense of justice, giving her a chance to reflect and reform.' Your supposition on deterrence is ridiculous as is your presumption about the victim and closure. As the judge said: '"Despite urgent medical intervention, nothing much can now be done to improve this outcome. She has not been able to work since the incident, and the long term effects on her and her family are likely to be profound.' |
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Post by dappy on Aug 29, 2024 10:35:40 GMT
If the current criminal justice system works in "deterring others", how did this incident happen? As the judge said "This was all pretty unedifying behaviour, but it is sadly typical of the conduct seen after a night out in this city centre.". Plainly the possibility of prison is not acting as a deterrence to drunks on a Saturday night getting into fights.
We know this was a serious incident which caused serious long term damage to the victim. Nothing can now be done to change that reality.
So I have to ask the question again. What do we gain by sending this woman to prison?
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Steve
Hero Protagonist
Posts: 3,633
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Post by Steve on Aug 29, 2024 11:27:29 GMT
You seem to believe that unless a certain crime is reduced to zero then there is no deterrent whatsoever. But that's not logical, deterrence is about reducing crime levels from what they otherwise would be.
It also seems that you see nothing wrong in the victim with her scarred face and only one eye having to see this grievous bodily harmer walking scot free.
Well best of luck convincing many with those positions.
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Post by dappy on Aug 29, 2024 11:45:19 GMT
OK show me the evidence that the current criminal justice system is effective in deterring people from getting into fights when drunk?
No one is suggesting the guilty party walks off "scot free". There are other ways of dealing with this that other countries would use. I am just asking you to explain what our society gains by locking this woman up for three years. Still patiently waiting for an answer. In truth when you think about the only answer is "nothing at all"
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