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Post by vinny on Aug 18, 2024 10:55:04 GMT
Got to respect what the Ukrainians are doing. Absolutely brilliant.
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Post by Zany on Aug 18, 2024 12:05:18 GMT
Are you suggesting the idea that if someone steals your car you should offer your motorbike in exchange? (Metaphor) Are you suggesting that we not use discretion? The world is a terrible place - you can't fight all those battlesWe chose to antagonise a nuclear armed regional power in its own back garden. Was that a sensible choice? In the interests of ourselves? I'm not seeing huge cost vs benefits here (for us). In any case, the whole situation is now out of the control of the kind of limited halfwits we have in charge of decision-making. We would need basic leadership competence to get this under control and we no longer have it. I said sometime ago that i feel this is the idiot decision that triggers the loss of western hegemony..it will take time to unravel, but unraveling it is. I have not changed my opinion But if you pacify Putin he will keep coming for more. Like most bullies he will never stop unless made to. So the end result is the same whether you face up to him now or are forced to make a stand later. What you can do with a bully is make it clear that whatever they do you will worse. Putin will never use nukes as he knows the result will be his own death. |
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Post by Zany on Aug 18, 2024 12:08:23 GMT
Got to respect what the Ukrainians are doing. Absolutely brilliant. I feel its more the reaction of a country with nowhere else to go. They risk escalating the war with no guarantee the West will support that, but the alternative is to live with endless war and no way to fight back. I am proud of them for daring to do this. |
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Post by Orac on Aug 18, 2024 12:53:30 GMT
Are you suggesting that we not use discretion? The world is a terrible place - you can't fight all those battlesWe chose to antagonise a nuclear armed regional power in its own back garden. Was that a sensible choice? In the interests of ourselves? I'm not seeing huge cost vs benefits here (for us). In any case, the whole situation is now out of the control of the kind of limited halfwits we have in charge of decision-making. We would need basic leadership competence to get this under control and we no longer have it. I said sometime ago that i feel this is the idiot decision that triggers the loss of western hegemony..it will take time to unravel, but unraveling it is. I have not changed my opinion But if you pacify Putin he will keep coming for more. Like most bullies he will never stop unless made to. So the end result is the same whether you face up to him now or are forced to make a stand later. What you can do with a bully is make it clear that whatever they do you will worse. Putin will never use nukes as he knows the result will be his own death. You keep refusing to engage with what i'm saying. We are out of options because of our stupidity - |
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Post by vinny on Aug 18, 2024 14:45:28 GMT
It's war and the best defence is a good offence.
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Steve
Hero Protagonist
Posts: 3,633
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Post by Steve on Aug 18, 2024 14:54:53 GMT
It's war and the best defence is a good offence. Not been true for ground warfare since the mid 19th century and the devlopment of what are overwhelmingly seen as defensive weapons. Unless you can destroy your enemy's ability to fight with that offence the long game will get you every time. 6 day war was probably the last example of offence as a defence and that was by use of surprise air attack. Does anyone think this incursion will destroy Russia's ability to fight or gain Ukraine air superiority over all its land? I can't see it. |
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Steve
Hero Protagonist
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Post by Steve on Aug 18, 2024 14:56:52 GMT
. . We chose to antagonise a nuclear armed regional power in its own back garden. . . .What are you referring to? |
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Post by Zany on Aug 18, 2024 15:12:21 GMT
But if you pacify Putin he will keep coming for more. Like most bullies he will never stop unless made to. So the end result is the same whether you face up to him now or are forced to make a stand later. What you can do with a bully is make it clear that whatever they do you will worse. Putin will never use nukes as he knows the result will be his own death. You keep refusing to engage with what i'm saying. We are out of options because of our stupidity - Engage with what? That you think our leaders are halfwits, but you have no better idea what to do yourself? Put your money where your mouth is and give me what you'd have done. |
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Post by Zany on Aug 18, 2024 15:16:03 GMT
It's war and the best defence is a good offence. Not been true for ground warfare since the mid 19th century and the devlopment of what are overwhelmingly seen as defensive weapons. Unless you can destroy your enemy's ability to fight with that offence the long game will get you every time. 6 day war was probably the last example of offence as a defence and that was by use of surprise air attack. Does anyone think this incursion will destroy Russia's ability to fight or gain Ukraine air superiority over all its land? I can't see it. Sadly you are right, the best defence these days is air superiority, Ukraine does not have that. All they can do without proper Western help is show the Russian public what a liar their leader is by bringing the fight to them. |
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Steve
Hero Protagonist
Posts: 3,633
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Post by Steve on Aug 18, 2024 23:16:48 GMT
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Post by Orac on Aug 19, 2024 6:56:45 GMT
You keep refusing to engage with what i'm saying. We are out of options because of our stupidity - Engage with what? That you think our leaders are halfwits, but you have no better idea what to do yourself? Put your money where your mouth is and give me what you'd have done. I have no neat and simple way to untangle an impossible situation created by halfwits? This is very much like the immigration debate. Our first and primary consideration is to deal with our leadership. Ukraine will in the meantime became an epic disaster - there is no stopping it. |
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Post by Zany on Aug 19, 2024 7:19:17 GMT
Engage with what? That you think our leaders are halfwits, but you have no better idea what to do yourself? Put your money where your mouth is and give me what you'd have done. I have no neat and simple way to untangle an impossible situation created by halfwits? This is very much like the immigration debate. Our first and primary consideration is to deal with our leadership. Ukraine will in the meantime became an epic disaster - there is no stopping it. I always envy the position of mud thrower, stand on the side lines saying they got it all wrong without offering any solution. Its not a position I am able to take. |
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Post by vinny on Aug 19, 2024 8:52:07 GMT
I have no neat and simple way to untangle an impossible situation created by halfwits? This is very much like the immigration debate. Our first and primary consideration is to deal with our leadership. Ukraine will in the meantime became an epic disaster - there is no stopping it. Ukraine have been under military attack for over 10 years, Donetsk, Luhansk and Crimea were stolen by Russia in the opening shots of this war. Acts of genocide have been committed. A full scale invasion began two years ago. It already is a disaster. The only way to stop it is to help the Ukrainians liberate their country. |
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Post by Zany on Aug 19, 2024 10:28:21 GMT
I have no neat and simple way to untangle an impossible situation created by halfwits? This is very much like the immigration debate. Our first and primary consideration is to deal with our leadership. Ukraine will in the meantime became an epic disaster - there is no stopping it. Ukraine have been under military attack for over 10 years, Donetsk, Luhansk and Crimea were stolen by Russia in the opening shots of this war. Acts of genocide have been committed. A full scale invasion began two years ago. It already is a disaster. The only way to stop it is to help the Ukrainians liberate their country. Or give it to Russia.  |
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Post by vinny on Aug 19, 2024 10:40:15 GMT
That's out of the question. There would be more genocide.
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