borg0
Full Member
Posts: 207
|
Post by borg0 on Nov 18, 2024 15:59:45 GMT
So sanction everyone, every country
|
|
|
Post by montegriffo on Nov 18, 2024 17:38:47 GMT
This is Biden getting revenge for the way Trump dropped him in the shit with his withdrawal from Afghanistan. Trump will inherit an administration where US missiles are being fired into Russia but he can't stop it or else he looks like he's controlled by Putin.
|
|
|
Post by dappy on Nov 18, 2024 21:23:16 GMT
Just shows how once the genie gets let out of the bottle things have a tendency to escalate beyond all planning and expectation.
Who would have thought a few years ago when the West had a decision to make whether to encourage Ukraine into its orbit by offering EU and NATO membership, we would end up bombing mainland Russia.
We didn’t have to do that and have ended up wasting huge amounts of our money, Ukrainian and Russian lives and living standards across the world. What have we gained? Nothing.
Spectacular miscalculation.
|
|
Steve
Hero Protagonist
Posts: 3,640
|
Post by Steve on Nov 18, 2024 23:27:41 GMT
We have never offered Ukraine NATO membership
|
|
|
Post by dappy on Nov 19, 2024 1:04:47 GMT
Let’s not split hairs Steve. I’ll rephrase. The West had a choice whether or not to do all it can to create the expectation in Ukraine and fear in Russia that Ukraine would shortly be admitted to NATO. Happy now?
|
|
|
Post by vinny on Nov 19, 2024 9:21:03 GMT
Just shows how once the genie gets let out of the bottle things have a tendency to escalate beyond all planning and expectation. Who would have thought a few years ago when the West had a decision to make whether to encourage Ukraine into its orbit by offering EU and NATO membership, we would end up bombing mainland Russia. We didn’t have to do that and have ended up wasting huge amounts of our money, Ukrainian and Russian lives and living standards across the world. What have we gained? Nothing. Spectacular miscalculation. We aren't bombing Russia, Ukraine are, out of necessity.
|
|
|
Post by vinny on Nov 19, 2024 9:24:49 GMT
We have never offered Ukraine NATO membership In 2008 Ukraine applied, NATO refused to offer membership to Ukraine or Georgia. Bucharest Summit. Whilst there as a guest, Putin first made his threat to steal Donbas and Crimea. Four months later Putin stole South Osetia from Georgia at gunpoint.
|
|
Steve
Hero Protagonist
Posts: 3,640
|
Post by Steve on Nov 19, 2024 9:47:02 GMT
Let’s not split hairs Steve. I’ll rephrase. The West had a choice whether or not to do all it can to create the expectation in Ukraine and fear in Russia that Ukraine would shortly be admitted to NATO. Happy now? No because I see no evidence of that pre invasion
|
|
|
Post by vinny on Nov 19, 2024 9:57:14 GMT
Our biggest mistake pre invasion was appeasement. We were signatories of the Budapest Memorandum and we did not aid Ukraine when Putin first attacked Ukraine in 2014. We should have helped them rebuild their military back then.
|
|
Steve
Hero Protagonist
Posts: 3,640
|
Post by Steve on Nov 19, 2024 10:08:45 GMT
Our biggest mistake pre invasion was appeasement. We were signatories of the Budapest Memorandum and we did not aid Ukraine when Putin first attacked Ukraine in 2014. We should have helped them rebuild their military back then. We should certainly have done more after flight MH17 was shut down but by and large the West wanted and still does want that cheap gas from Russia more than upholding principles.
|
|
|
Post by dappy on Nov 19, 2024 10:16:00 GMT
In life it is always wise to seek to see the actions you propose to take through the other guys eyes. That applies to individuals but to countries too.
it is fanciful to suggest that we weren't seeking to take Ukraine into a sphere of orbit offering the carrot of EU and NATO membership to do so.
Unsurprisingly Russia felt threatened by our actions - never underestimate the lasting legacy of WW2 on Russian psyche.
Their subsequent action s were entirely predictable.
It was a failure of our diplomacy to create the environment when this war became a possibility. A catastrophic failure.
It was a catastrophic failure of Russia that they launched the invasion.
As nearly always in the affairs of man - whether individual or national - conflict is almost invariably a result of both parties failings - very rarely the pure responsibility of one party.
By the way Vinny, if Russia moved some missiles into Belarus and a Belarussian finger pressed the button of a missile that landed in Manchester, would you see that as an attack by Belarus or Russia or both.
|
|
|
Post by vinny on Nov 19, 2024 10:37:32 GMT
I completely understand. And you make a good argument.
|
|
Steve
Hero Protagonist
Posts: 3,640
|
Post by Steve on Nov 19, 2024 13:23:27 GMT
In life it is always wise to seek to see the actions you propose to take through the other guys eyes. That applies to individuals but to countries too. it is fanciful to suggest that we weren't seeking to take Ukraine into a sphere of orbit offering the carrot of EU and NATO membership to do so. . . And just who are you supposing offered that carrot of NATO membership? Zelensky said he wanted it but not only was that was long after the 2014 invasion by Russia but it wasn't an invite from NATO. As for EU membership it was Russia's mate Yanukovich that got himself elected promising a route to EU membership. And the EU always has open to any country to explore such but its criteria stop many before they get anywhere. The EU was very much stalling on even the co-operation agreement before that 2014 invasion.
|
|
|
Post by dappy on Nov 19, 2024 13:55:21 GMT
NATO Steve. They were explicit.
|
|
Steve
Hero Protagonist
Posts: 3,640
|
Post by Steve on Nov 19, 2024 14:16:15 GMT
NATO Steve. They were explicit. Link please to back that. There was a plan for Ukraine to become a NATO member but that was terminated by Ukraine in 2010. I can find no evidence of further invite by NATO until after the 2014 Russian invasions of Crimea and the DonBas
|
|