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Post by dappy on Nov 19, 2024 15:35:24 GMT
The NATO conference held in Bucharest in 2009 stated in its final communique that “Ukraine will become a member of NATO”. (Paragraph 23) Again put yourself in Russia’s shoes , with the national trauma of WW2 still very prevalent in Russia’s psyche. It was a major blow to Russia’s feeling of security and was a catastrophic mistake.
Yanukovych taking over as Ukraine president slowed that process but when he has overthrown (with CIA assistance in Russia’s eyes), Russia understandably feared that this path would recommence which led pretty immediately to the invasion of Crimea to protect Sevastopol from NATO influence.
That led to more nationalistic governments in Kiev, worse treatment of the Russian speaking minority and an increasing threat of further movement of the remainder of Ukraine into Western influence and led to the full invasion.
That is broadly how Russia saw events. You may argue they were wrong to see it that way but that is irrelevant.
Now look at a sliding doors moment where the 2009 NATO conference and the EU said sorry no no membership ever for Ukraine but with security and trade assurances. Would the world have been in a better or worse place now had wiser heads prevailed?
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Steve
Hero Protagonist
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Post by Steve on Nov 19, 2024 16:22:26 GMT
Yes as I said there was a plan. But it was terminated by Ukraine in 2010 and no threats had been made by Russia then. I can find no invite by NATO after then until after the Russian invasions of 2014. So they were nothing to do with NATO and everything to do with Putin's wish to be leader of a greater ethnic Russian empire. And then there was no NATO invite before the massive Russian invasion of 2022. It suits some to blame NATO but the blame really is 100% on Putin. www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_37750.htm is a good timeline |
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Post by dappy on Nov 19, 2024 16:40:51 GMT
As I said the blame in any conflict is very rarely all on one side or the other. It isn’t in this case either.
Had the west not so cavalierly courted Ukraine by raising expectations of EU and NATO membership, we wouldn’t have created the beginnings of the environment that step by step has escalated to war - a war that seems to be escalating still further.
It was a catastrophic miscalculation.
Had Ukrainian leaders post 2014 sought more actively to reassure Russia and deflame tensions, tragedy could have been averted. Those opportunities were missed.
Had Putin chosen a different path of the several open to him, the world and Russia would today be in a much better place. That was a catastrophic miscalculation too.
I don’t agree with Trump on much but he is right that this war needs to be ended before escalation upon escalation upon escalation results in something far worse than we have seen for many years, perhaps ever.
Who would have seriously thought even five years ago that in 2024 we (or at least our proxy) would be bombing mainland Russia. Mankind is a very long way from being as clever as it thinks it is.
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Post by AvonCalling on Nov 19, 2024 17:26:19 GMT
Just shows how once the genie gets let out of the bottle things have a tendency to escalate beyond all planning and expectation. Who would have thought a few years ago when the West had a decision to make whether to encourage Ukraine into its orbit by offering EU and NATO membership, we would end up bombing mainland Russia. We didn’t have to do that and have ended up wasting huge amounts of our money, Ukrainian and Russian lives and living standards across the world. What have we gained? Nothing. Spectacular miscalculation. We aren't bombing Russia, Ukraine are, out of necessity. Quite and it's blindingly obvious for anyone to see. I definitely do not think that is splitting hairs. |
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Post by AvonCalling on Nov 19, 2024 17:27:57 GMT
Our biggest mistake pre invasion was appeasement. We were signatories of the Budapest Memorandum and we did not aid Ukraine when Putin first attacked Ukraine in 2014. We should have helped them rebuild their military back then. I may be wrong here but didn't the Ukraine give Russia nuclear missiles back on the promise that Russia would not invade the Ukraine? |
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Post by vinny on Nov 19, 2024 18:01:09 GMT
Our biggest mistake pre invasion was appeasement. We were signatories of the Budapest Memorandum and we did not aid Ukraine when Putin first attacked Ukraine in 2014. We should have helped them rebuild their military back then. I may be wrong here but didn't the Ukraine give Russia nuclear missiles back on the promise that Russia would not invade the Ukraine? You're absolutely right, and Russia signed a treaty guaranteeing Ukraine's security in exchange for them doing so. This treaty (Budapest Memorandum), it's only 16 pages long and not difficult to read: treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/Volume%203007/Part/volume-3007-I-52241.pdf |
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Steve
Hero Protagonist
Posts: 3,698
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Post by Steve on Nov 19, 2024 18:58:46 GMT
. . .Had Ukrainian leaders post 2014 sought more actively to reassure Russia and deflame tensions, tragedy could have been averted. . . . That would have been to surrender to illegal military action. And what would Putin have demanded then? More Ukrainian surrenders and then Moldova, Georgia and Poland would have been pressured to surrender to Putin's empire building. |
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Post by vinny on Nov 19, 2024 20:55:16 GMT
NATO Steve. They were explicit. When? |
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Post by dappy on Nov 20, 2024 11:34:21 GMT
See above Vinny
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Post by vinny on Nov 20, 2024 11:38:11 GMT
Yes as I said there was a plan. But it was terminated by Ukraine in 2010 and no threats had been made by Russia then. I can find no invite by NATO after then until after the Russian invasions of 2014. So they were nothing to do with NATO and everything to do with Putin's wish to be leader of a greater ethnic Russian empire. And then there was no NATO invite before the massive Russian invasion of 2022. It suits some to blame NATO but the blame really is 100% on Putin. www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_37750.htm is a good timeline The threat was made at the 2008 Bucharest Summit, Putin was stupidly invited to. NATO bent over backwards to appease that scumbag, even creating the Russia NATO council for him.
Every bit of kindness was regarded as weakness.
Every offer of friendship, was regarded as cowardice.
Like all bullies, he only understands the language of a bop on the nose.
Time to give Ukraine all the assistance they need.
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Post by Dubdrifter on Nov 22, 2024 6:56:24 GMT
Sadly it's a huge mistake IMHO. A morale booster maybe but it will help Putin with his false narrative, weaken support from some nations and will divert key resources into fighting on territory where they will be at a logistical disadvantage. Only invade a territory where and when you believe you can summon and deploy the resources to crush the military of that territory. D Day and our retaking of the Falklands are good examples, Napoleon's and Hitler's invasion of Russia are examples of how it can end up hurting you big time. On the nail, Steve. … you don’t make a minor incursion into Russian territory, losing huge amounts of men and equipment … solely to take strategically minor short term gains in relation to the Ukraine aims in this conflict … to get back the Ukraine territory they once owned in Donbas and Crimea … which is pretty much permanently lost now. This move was not tactically initiated by the military generals in Zelensky’s Ukraine Army … because it is such a stupid FOLLY that it defies all the Rules of Military Training and Combat learnt by the EXPERT GENERALS that studied warfare and tactics in the ‘Sandhurst’ of Ukraine. This is the ACT of a manipulated ACTOR who learnt his FANTASY war skills on TV and film sets … but knows how to “take orders” from directors like the CIA … and the Deep State run by the Zionist Posse. This INVASION … was essentially an act designed to trigger all out nuclear war with Russia. The WESTERN NATO ALLIANCE …. is NOT prepared for a ground war with Russia … and the Deep State assets now controlling our UK PARLIAMENT …. Defence Secretary John Heeley and PM Kier Starmer are actively NOW dismantling and trashing our conventional non-nuclear weapon Forces designed to sustain any Defence obligations they have for the UK Border … and Commonwealth Border. They are now making moves to actively provoke nuclear war with Russia(part of the original plan if annexation of Crimea failed - which they knew it would) … a conventional war situation is not sustainable by this UK Government … and a nuclear war situation will only last minutes in REALITY. … if UK Citizens are not in a DUMB. Here is proof from a retired Tornado pilot that Defence Secretary John Heeley is a serial liar … and has UK Forces engaged at war with Russia … and NOW ENGAGED PROVOKING A NUCLEAR WAR … a war to end ALL wars. Here is proof that this Deep State EVIL … is simultaneously DISMANTLING the UK’s capability to defend itself … and its Commonwealth Alliance infrastructure … with decommissioning policies … and no planned REPLACEMENT. If people work out the implications of this FOLLY …. and look also at the BIG PICTURE here … all a military analyst and expert would conclude is … ……. our Western Deep State has just OFFICIALLY declared WAR on it’s OWN PEOPLE (?!WTF!)
…… and is NOW ACTIVELY ENGAGED in pulling our whole ‘BUILDING’ down … before TRUMP gets a chance to REMEDY this catastrophically dangerous situation.
The level of MADNESS in the UK MOD war room right now … is off the scale. 🤔
We should all prep for the end now … no exaggeration. … anyone with a modicum of tactical military logistic planning can see what is happening here. …. yet the BBC and ALL mainstream media is silent. While the Media in Sweden and Finland … recently tricked into joining NATO in order to trigger this EVENT … certain nuclear war … have just announce to their citizens … to prepare for World War 3. In other words … the END of Civilisation as we know it. To all Members … I wish you all the best … Let us just pray that there is someone SENSIBLE in the DEEP STATE responsible enough to STOP THIS … and just WALK AWAY FROM THE RED BUTTON … and dismantle this acutely dangerous situation.
… and hold up their hands in recognition … the WESTERN NATO ALLIANCE …. the CIA and the Soros Posse provoked the sequence of events that led to this war … and today’s GRAVE ESCALATION.My thoughts are this thread title should be changed to … UK MOD now fighting Russia…. WW3 has started. |
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Post by vinny on Nov 22, 2024 8:24:41 GMT
We are aiding the victims of an illegal invasion.
You are propagandising for the perpetrator.
We are calling for the invasion to end.
You are calling for aid to end, which would result in more civilian deaths.
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Post by AvonCalling on Nov 22, 2024 14:00:19 GMT
Sadly it's a huge mistake IMHO. A morale booster maybe but it will help Putin with his false narrative, weaken support from some nations and will divert key resources into fighting on territory where they will be at a logistical disadvantage. Only invade a territory where and when you believe you can summon and deploy the resources to crush the military of that territory. D Day and our retaking of the Falklands are good examples, Napoleon's and Hitler's invasion of Russia are examples of how it can end up hurting you big time. On the nail, Steve. … you don’t make a minor incursion into Russian territory, losing huge amounts of men and equipment … solely to take strategically minor short term gains in relation to the Ukraine aims in this conflict … to get back the Ukraine territory they once owned in Donbas and Crimea … which is pretty much permanently lost now. This move was not tactically initiated by the military generals in Zelensky’s Ukraine Army … because it is such a stupid FOLLY that it defies all the Rules of Military Training and Combat learnt by the EXPERT GENERALS that studied warfare and tactics in the ‘Sandhurst’ of Ukraine. This is the ACT of a manipulated ACTOR who learnt his FANTASY war skills on TV and film sets … but knows how to “take orders” from directors like the CIA … and the Deep State run by the Zionist Posse. This INVASION … was essentially an act designed to trigger all out nuclear war with Russia. The WESTERN NATO ALLIANCE …. is NOT prepared for a ground war with Russia … and the Deep State assets now controlling our UK PARLIAMENT …. Defence Secretary John Heeley and PM Kier Starmer are actively NOW dismantling and trashing our conventional non-nuclear weapon Forces designed to sustain any Defence obligations they have for the UK Border … and Commonwealth Border. They are now making moves to actively provoke nuclear war with Russia(part of the original plan if annexation of Crimea failed - which they knew it would) … a conventional war situation is not sustainable by this UK Government … and a nuclear war situation will only last minutes in REALITY. … if UK Citizens are not in a DUMB. Here is proof from a retired Tornado pilot that Defence Secretary John Heeley is a serial liar … and has UK Forces engaged at war with Russia … and NOW ENGAGED PROVOKING A NUCLEAR WAR … a war to end ALL wars. Here is proof that this Deep State EVIL … is simultaneously DISMANTLING the UK’s capability to defend itself … and its Commonwealth Alliance infrastructure … with decommissioning policies … and no planned REPLACEMENT. If people work out the implications of this FOLLY …. and look also at the BIG PICTURE here … all a military analyst and expert would conclude is … ……. our Western Deep State has just OFFICIALLY declared WAR on it’s OWN PEOPLE (?!WTF!)
…… and is NOW ACTIVELY ENGAGED in pulling our whole ‘BUILDING’ down … before TRUMP gets a chance to REMEDY this catastrophically dangerous situation.
The level of MADNESS in the UK MOD war room right now … is off the scale. 🤔
We should all prep for the end now … no exaggeration. … anyone with a modicum of tactical military logistic planning can see what is happening here. …. yet the BBC and ALL mainstream media is silent. While the Media in Sweden and Finland … recently tricked into joining NATO in order to trigger this EVENT … certain nuclear war … have just announce to their citizens … to prepare for World War 3. In other words … the END of Civilisation as we know it. To all Members … I wish you all the best … Let us just pray that there is someone SENSIBLE in the DEEP STATE responsible enough to STOP THIS … and just WALK AWAY FROM THE RED BUTTON … and dismantle this acutely dangerous situation.
… and hold up their hands in recognition … the WESTERN NATO ALLIANCE …. the CIA and the Soros Posse provoked the sequence of events that led to this war … and today’s GRAVE ESCALATION.My thoughts are this thread title should be changed to … UK MOD now fighting Russia…. WW3 has started. Ellipsis Alert Ellipsis Alert. |
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Post by Dubdrifter on Nov 23, 2024 7:56:27 GMT
ellipsis
/ĭ-lĭp′sĭs/
noun
The omission of a word or phrase necessary for a complete syntactical construction but not necessary for understanding.
An example of such omission.
A mark or series of marks ( … or * * * , for example) used in writing or printing to indicate an omission, especially of letters or words.
…. er … every post on this Forum can have some form of Ellipsis Alert label attached to it … Is that not so??
Members cannot post all the reasons for the UK not to engage in actions that destroy the Planet as we know it … and 5 billion+ years of evolution …
You will have to be more specific about what ‘omission’ you are talking about here, AC?
I gather you did not watch the recommendation I gave you recently? … the “Ukraine on Fire” 2016 film FREE on Youtube? … and all the “Roses Have Thorns” series (parts 1 - 16+) on the same Channel?? … otherwise you would be VOCALLY supporting my PEACE OVERTURES on here now … 🙄🤔
Surely that is an example of another “ellipsis alert” … an omission in your knowledge … an act of ‘cancel culture’ that can lead to the end of Humanity … and certainly all Life here … as nuclear winter grips the planet?
…..All because a bunch of Dr Strangelove genocidalists linked to Israel and the Pentagon got upset they lost a few journalist agitators to murder by the FSB
… which arguably upset their plans for the eastern expansionist invasion of Russia and subjugation of the Russian people to Zionist totalitarian oppression.
Russians and Americans … and the Rest of the World doesn’t care if the only choice they have for survival of their Countries … and the Human Race …. is a PEACE ACCORD between two dodgy humans with obnoxious sexual abuse allegations still hanging over their heads.
If the Zionist-owned MSM … and the Kremlin had offered Russians, Americans and British/European people better options to vote for … in the two horse races they fix …. then we might not be having to rely on a Peace Accord between two blemished candidates jointly trying to stop Western-backed neo-Nazis bullying the take over of our World.
As the Zionists and their top poodles hide in their DUMBS … we arguably have more of their poodle idiots who support their genocide ☠️and these wars … OUT IN THE OPEN …. on this Forum … backing their own annihilation.
🤔
It’s hard to fathom this level of suicidal stupidity exists … in this modern age of free education.
The Trevor and Carol’s of this World … aren’t the smart one’s to navigate our survival.
… Ironically … it’s the Republicans that have the survival instinct here.
…. Who would have ‘thunk’ it, eh?! 🤣👍
… We just need PUTIN to destroy the CIA’s/NATO’s and UK’s operational capability in Ukraine … and hold off going nuclear … under intense irresponsible MOD/CIA directed missile strikes … in the precious few weeks we have left … before Trump can take Office.
And here is the problem … my guess is the next move from this EVIL entrenched in the Western Rogue State and GCHQ, will likely be the assassination of Trump and his VP and support team … before they take Office … possibly a rigged tragic accident … sabotage of Airforce 1 for instance? … a REAL overt demonstration who is really IN CHARGE in America today.
… but … in the EVENT Trump was deliberately taken out … this action would trigger CIVIL WAR in America.
…. and the overview suggests that the Military Command would definitely be on the side of the Republicans against the Deep State and their attack on Democracy as we know it … and would eventually flush these ‘anarchist insurgents’ out of their Pentagon DUMBS … in a series of lengthy toxic firefights.
My guess is they would drill into their DUMBS and gas them out … (if you want a future prediction). … The straggling survivors will probably emerge from their DUMBS looking like pale brainless ghosts … after so long locked underground … grovelling on their knees and begging for mercy.
You heard it here first. 😋 … and my advice to them is the game is up … the UK Military that is being made a poodle
supporting this EVIL is not stupid … I hope and pray they will return home now … and enter the War Rooms of the UK and GCHQ/Deep State with their guns drawn … and arrest and put on trial these destroyers of our way of Life.
The Military both sides of The Pond are going to have to take the united decision to arrest these people before Civil unrest breaks out … they will unfortunately have to temporarily shut down our UK Parliament and declare martial law … reconfigure balance in the MSM … take it out of control of Religious factions … make it open and FREE SPEECH … Parliament will be shut and the Whips imprisoned … until our Democracy can be restored to represent our People’s interests … policies for the indigenous majority … not policies forced on us … to solely benefit an invading growing dangerous minority.
Legally … the Military can throw the bloody book at these anarchists.
…. it’s not a difficult case to prosecute in a Court of Human Rights where the Judges are independent and honest.
…. but where the heck are we going to find a truly honest JUDGE in Europe today? … our JUDGE DREDD??!🤔
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Post by vinny on Nov 23, 2024 8:30:50 GMT
Nuclear war cannot happen because even Putin is not stupid enough to initiate a first strike.
The only winning move in nuclear war is to not launch.
Putin the bully is full of threats but knows we have nukes too and mutually assured destruction would be the result.
He's a thug, but he's not a suicidal thug.
Arm Ukraine to the teeth.
Force Putin to withdraw from the stolen territories and end his war against Ukraine.
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