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Post by vinny on Jul 16, 2024 11:21:30 GMT
1) FPTP applied and you know the effect that has.
2) Anti Maastricht parties were pretty much unheard of, underfunded and unable to contest many seats.
3) I was not old enough to vote at that time.
4) In percentage terms, the biggest turnout in UK election history (since women got the vote) was the 1950 General Election (83.9%).
Turnout is extremely poor these days due to dissatisfaction with all parties.
The biggest task Labour has is trying to re-engage the public with democracy and restore faith in politics.
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Jul 16, 2024 13:59:53 GMT
1) FPTP applied and you know the effect that has. 2) Anti Maastricht parties were pretty much unheard of, underfunded and unable to contest many seats. 3) I was not old enough to vote at that time. 4) In percentage terms, the biggest turnout in UK election history (since women got the vote) was the 1950 General Election (83.9%). Turnout is extremely poor these days due to dissatisfaction with all parties. The biggest task Labour has is trying to re-engage the public with democracy and restore faith in politics. 1: you were happy to accept that effect in 2019 so don't moan about it for 1992 2: that's because anti Maastrichtism was a niche pursuit and that was because most werehappy with it 3: irrelevant unless you're going to advocate rerunning the 2016 referendum with all those that were aged 10 to 18 then able to vote. I bet you aren't. 4: doesn't change that 1992 was the biggest turnout |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2024 14:31:01 GMT
Support for leaving the EU began as soon as the Maastricht Treaty was proposed without giving us the say on whether or not to sign. See the Maastricht rebellion, it was bigger than the Tory party and Labour did not recognise Maastricht rebels outside the Conservatives until decades later when the Red Wall gave them the boot. Back then most opposition to the EU came from within the ranks of typical Tory voters, working class or otherwise. Maastricht was hardly a number one priority for most of the struggling Labour supporting working classes. What changed radically was the perception that their lot was being deliberately worsened by cheap migrant labour flooding the labour market which happened under Labour and then Labour calling them all racists because they complained about this. That's when anti-EU freedom of movement really began to gain traction amongst the former Labour voting working classes. Before then, only the Jonksy types amongst the working class felt strongly about it and they never voted Labour in the first place. The former working class core vote began to desert Labour in the Blair years, and the labour market being flooded with cheap labour from the EU had a lot to do with that. |
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Post by Steve on Jul 16, 2024 14:40:12 GMT
Yep, Maastricht was a good treaty for the UK but the later Amsterdam and accession treaties agreed by Blair were disasters for working class Brits
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2024 14:42:02 GMT
Support for leaving the EU began as soon as the Maastricht Treaty was proposed without giving us the say on whether or not to sign. See the Maastricht rebellion, it was bigger than the Tory party and Labour did not recognise Maastricht rebels outside the Conservatives until decades later when the Red Wall gave them the boot. You had an election, the biggest turnout election in UK history to object to Maastrcht and anti Maastricht parties got bugger all votes and all deposits lost. Indeed. Outside of the ranks of a few working class Sun and Mail readers, and dyed in the wool Tories, Maastricht barely registered as an issue for most people at the time. It was only when the floodgates to cheap EU labour were opened, and UKIP changed tack to focus their main emphasis on freedom of movement and immigration instead of the sovereignty issue, that it began to gain serious ground, not only amongst Tories but Labour voters too. |
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Post by vinny on Jul 16, 2024 15:35:48 GMT
Support for leaving the EU began as soon as the Maastricht Treaty was proposed without giving us the say on whether or not to sign. See the Maastricht rebellion, it was bigger than the Tory party and Labour did not recognise Maastricht rebels outside the Conservatives until decades later when the Red Wall gave them the boot. Back then most opposition to the EU came from within the ranks of typical Tory voters, working class or otherwise. Maastricht was hardly a number one priority for most of the struggling Labour supporting working classes. You weren't paying attention to Tony Benn then: hansard.parliament.uk/commons/1992-09-25/debates/5544ed24-42e7-464e-a893-3057ede0f231/TreatyOfMaastricht(Referendum) |
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Post by vinny on Jul 16, 2024 15:41:30 GMT
Steve, you know full well I voted for AV in 2011.
You know full well I accept the results of the referendum and do not support another referendum on AV until 2036.
You know full well that I would support a referendum on PR and would vote for PR.
We had a referendum in 2016, the nation voted to leave the EU and hadn't by 2019.
The resultant attempt at a stitch up by the other parties resulted in the Tories getting a huge majority, now wiped out.
I would support another referendum on membership of whatever the EU becomes, after the Lisbon Treaty has been superseded but unless it has significantly improved I would not vote to rejoin.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2024 17:11:34 GMT
I have read books by Tony Benn and am fully versed in his opposition to EU membership, in which he is representative of a strand of thinking on the ideological left. However, The EU did not become a major issue amongst most working class Labour voters until it became the means by which cheap migrant labour flooded the Labour market. Before Blair, apart from a few left wingers like Benn, Euroscepticism mostly came in a right wing flavour. There was a time - 1983 - when a left wing Labour party championed it of course, but they were broadly portrayed as economic lunatics by the right wing media and lost heavily. Which is rather ironic. Left wing opponents of the EU have largely been driven to the margins since then. George Galloway is one such. I know because he blocked me on twitter for challenging his anti-EU stance. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2024 17:17:48 GMT
Steve, you know full well I voted for AV in 2011. You know full well I accept the results of the referendum and do not support another referendum on AV until 2036. You know full well that I would support a referendum on PR and would vote for PR. We had a referendum in 2016, the nation voted to leave the EU and hadn't by 2019. The resultant attempt at a stitch up by the other parties resulted in the Tories getting a huge majority, now wiped out. I would support another referendum on membership of whatever the EU becomes, after the Lisbon Treaty has been superseded but unless it has significantly improved I would not vote to rejoin. I think any referendum on rejoining is some time away, since it will probably be at least a decade before there is even sufficient public support for renegotiating our return, if ever. And then the deal has to be put before the people probably after further years of wrangling. And this assuming the EU will even want us back. But if there ever is such a referendum in our lifetimes, I would wager that the Stay Outsiders and the Rejoiners will both be better informed than they were last time. |
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Post by Steve on Jul 16, 2024 17:44:11 GMT
Steve, you know full well I voted for AV in 2011. You know full well I accept the results of the referendum and do not support another referendum on AV until 2036. You know full well that I would support a referendum on PR and would vote for PR. We had a referendum in 2016, the nation voted to leave the EU and hadn't by 2019. The resultant attempt at a stitch up by the other parties resulted in the Tories getting a huge majority, now wiped out. I would support another referendum on membership of whatever the EU becomes, after the Lisbon Treaty has been superseded but unless it has significantly improved I would not vote to rejoin. And as ever you try to gloss over that the 2016 referendum was contaminated by one side's record breaking illegal spending and the Electpral Commission's covering up of that until after the Article 50 Act was passed. Your electoral justification for Brexit is the 2019 election. Just the same as the 1992 election endorsed Maastricht. You can't apply different standards to them. |
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Post by Zany on Jul 16, 2024 18:02:47 GMT
What they actually said in 2019: 'Labour will give the people the final say on Brexit. Within three months of coming to power, a Labour government will secure a sensible deal. And within six months, we will put that deal to a public vote alongside the option to remain. A Labour government will implement whatever the people decide' ucrel.lancs.ac.uk/wmatrix/ukmanifestos2019/localpdf/Labour.pdf Yeah I remember that and thinking do I trust Corbyn to do that. If you here SRB then probably not. |
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Post by Zany on Jul 16, 2024 18:12:13 GMT
Yep, Maastricht was a good treaty for the UK but the later Amsterdam and accession treaties agreed by Blair were disasters for working class Brits I was amazed that no one thought of the role of the British language in FoM. How semi skilled Polish men who's second language was English found the UK preferable to France. Who'd have thought it. |
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Post by Steve on Jul 16, 2024 20:53:11 GMT
It was a huge draw. How Blair ever believed that 'only 40,000 will come' just beggars belief.
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