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Post by Amadan on Jul 12, 2024 7:42:09 GMT
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Post by Amadan on Jul 12, 2024 7:49:46 GMT
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Post by vinny on Jul 12, 2024 8:20:55 GMT
As the choice was bad / even worse I'm not surprised.
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Post by Amadan on Jul 12, 2024 8:25:20 GMT
As the choice was bad / even worse I'm not surprised. It's fun watching the continued slow motion car crash of the FPTP system. I wonder how long it will be before they admit they have a problem? Turnout at ten per cent? When folk can't trust the ballot box , we have seen in places like Northern Ireland what happens.
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Post by Amadan on Jul 12, 2024 8:37:29 GMT
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Post by patman post on Jul 12, 2024 8:37:35 GMT
I doubt the low turnout was due to the UK’s current voting system — which was thought OK when an alternative PR system was rejected in a 2011 referendum.
The lack of interest in voting last week seems to have been due to disillusion with parliamentary politics. And of those votes cast, it wouldn’t surprise me if many (if not most) were protest votes in a general Anyone But Conservative groundswell…
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Post by Amadan on Jul 12, 2024 8:43:31 GMT
I doubt the low turnout was due to the UK’s current voting system — which was thought OK when an alternative PR system was rejected in a 2011 referendum. The lack of interest in voting last week seems to have been due to disillusion with parliamentary politics. And of those votes cast, it wouldn’t surprise me if many (if not most) were protest votes in a general Anyone But Conservative groundswell… you doubt? Do you have proof of what caused the low turnout , or is this just personal thoughts on the matter , as valid as anyone else's? the 2011 AV referendum wasn't an endorsement of fptp , merely a rejection of Av , which even nick Clegg called a grubby little compromise. possibly , but if the system is geared up to endorsing two parties voters are fed up with , it follows that people won't turn out to vote. Who disagrees? The point is 80 % of the electorate didnt want labour either.
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Post by Amadan on Jul 12, 2024 8:45:28 GMT
I think your post pat , is whats called polishing a turd. Like I said ,at what point do we recognise there is a clear and growing problem?
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Post by equivocal on Jul 12, 2024 9:04:34 GMT
I doubt the low turnout was due to the UK’s current voting system — which was thought OK when an alternative PR system was rejected in a 2011 referendum. The lack of interest in voting last week seems to have been due to disillusion with parliamentary politics. And of those votes cast, it wouldn’t surprise me if many (if not most) were protest votes in a general Anyone But Conservative groundswell… There were probably a host of reasons for the low turnout. I think six weeks or so of heavily publicised polls predicting a Labour landslide made a significant contribution.
As far as Wales is concerned, there is no doubt Labour has problems. I think most of its problems surround its choice of leader in the Welsh Parliament. Since appointment he appears to have been less than candid in his reponses to the Covid Inquiry, he accepted a large donation from a convicted environmental criminal and it now appears he sacked one of his ministers without a fair hearing.
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Jul 12, 2024 9:12:09 GMT
I doubt the low turnout was due to the UK’s current voting system — which was thought OK when an alternative PR system was rejected in a 2011 referendum. The lack of interest in voting last week seems to have been due to disillusion with parliamentary politics. And of those votes cast, it wouldn’t surprise me if many (if not most) were protest votes in a general Anyone But Conservative groundswell… Seconded on all points. My wife and I voted but only decided in the last hours which was the least worst option. Years of dishonesty by the Tories and those dodgy years of Corbyn leading Labour have had a serious effect on many.
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Post by Amadan on Jul 12, 2024 9:14:11 GMT
I doubt the low turnout was due to the UK’s current voting system — which was thought OK when an alternative PR system was rejected in a 2011 referendum. The lack of interest in voting last week seems to have been due to disillusion with parliamentary politics. And of those votes cast, it wouldn’t surprise me if many (if not most) were protest votes in a general Anyone But Conservative groundswell… There were probably a host of reasons for the low turnout. I think six weeks or so of heavily publicised polls predicting a Labour landslide made a significant contribution.
As far as Wales is concerned, there is no doubt Labour has problems. I think most of its problems surround its choice of leader in the Welsh Parliament. Since appointment he appears to have been less than candid in his reponses to the Covid Inquiry, he accepted a large donation from a convicted environmental criminal and it now appears he sacked one of his ministers without a fair hearing.
labour gained most seats in scotland as you know , yet the polls were forecasting labour and snp neck and neck. So im not sure the media telling Scots that the GE was a foregone conclusion for labour thus dont bother voting was an argument for what happened here. I thought this was the second lowest turnout on record ( need I repeat since universal suffrage) but it does appear it was the lowest , certainly in scotland which beat the 2001 record of 58 % of adults turning out , 2024 scotland was down to an all time low of 54% of adults. I think you are correct though in there being multiple reason , I dont agree though with pats attempt to brush off the problems of the dodgy British electoral system. The dodgy FPTP two party stitch up is a clear and growing problem , with many voicing deep concern. We are in a multi party system with an out of date electoral system that cannot cope , deliberately or otherwise. No country in the western world that I can see has such a disproportionate result in modern history , giving a party double the seats comparable to its vote share. Surely time to bring England into line with the rest of us in Europe , with at least matching the devolved system , if not going further in terms of PR?
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Post by Amadan on Jul 12, 2024 9:17:37 GMT
I doubt the low turnout was due to the UK’s current voting system — which was thought OK when an alternative PR system was rejected in a 2011 referendum. The lack of interest in voting last week seems to have been due to disillusion with parliamentary politics. And of those votes cast, it wouldn’t surprise me if many (if not most) were protest votes in a general Anyone But Conservative groundswell… Years of dishonesty by the Tories and those dodgy years of Corbyn leading Labour have had a serious effect on many. wait...what? Are you implying starmer got half a million votes less than Corbyn did in their 2019 trouncing as the fault of Jeremy Corbyn? Nearly half a decade on ? How do you explain starmer losing half of the vote in his own seat , and Corbyn trouncing the labour candidate in islington if Corbyn is deeply unpopular ?
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Jul 12, 2024 9:19:35 GMT
Corbyn clearly had an effect on confidence in the Labour party. I didn't say he was the only cause of low turnout, a lot of people see Starmer as Mr Dull.
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Post by Amadan on Jul 12, 2024 9:25:27 GMT
Corbyn clearly had an effect on confidence in the Labour party. How so? Are we forgetting the damage done to the party under the Blair /brown years , the milliband years , and from what I remember the only labour leader to take more votes than Corbyn did in 2017 was Blair in 1997 , never again to be matched. ok. That was the implication to me from your post , hence the question. Whatever problems Corbyn did or did not cause labour in the past are clearly nothing to do with starmers lacklustre election victory .
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Post by equivocal on Jul 12, 2024 9:47:15 GMT
There were probably a host of reasons for the low turnout. I think six weeks or so of heavily publicised polls predicting a Labour landslide made a significant contribution.
As far as Wales is concerned, there is no doubt Labour has problems. I think most of its problems surround its choice of leader in the Welsh Parliament. Since appointment he appears to have been less than candid in his reponses to the Covid Inquiry, he accepted a large donation from a convicted environmental criminal and it now appears he sacked one of his ministers without a fair hearing.
labour gained most seats in scotland as you know , yet the polls were forecasting labour and snp neck and neck. So im not sure the media telling Scots that the GE was a foregone conclusion for labour thus dont bother voting was an argument for what happened here. I thought this was the second lowest turnout on record ( need I repeat since universal suffrage) but it does appear it was the lowest , certainly in scotland which beat the 2001 record of 58 % of adults turning out , 2024 scotland was down to an all time low of 54% of adults. I think you are correct though in there being multiple reason , I dont agree though with pats attempt to brush off the problems of the dodgy British electoral system. The dodgy FPTP two party stitch up is a clear and growing problem , with many voicing deep concern. We are in a multi party system with an out of date electoral system that cannot cope , deliberately or otherwise. No country in the western world that I can see has such a disproportionate result in modern history , giving a party double the seats comparable to its vote share. Surely time to bring England into line with the rest of us in Europe , with at least matching the devolved system , if not going further in terms of PR? The seat/percentage disparity certainly suggests the need for change. I haven't looked at a cross section of nations employing the various systems in terms of turnout, so I don't really have an opinion on how a change might have affected turnout. Similarly, with a different system, it's hard to predict how the result might have been affected. I think, though, it's fair to say a mandate derived from some form of PR or AV would have more 'legitimacy'.
I imagine that the various difficulties recently encountered by the SNP would have had the effect of supressing turnover with many independence supporters feeling unable to vote for the party. That, I suppose, is a bit of a double whammy for independence supporters with, at least as I see it, a Labour Government being less unpopular in Scotland than the Tory alternative.
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