borgr0
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Post by borgr0 on Jul 14, 2024 18:25:07 GMT
And yet in 2019 they voted differently
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Post by vinny on Jul 14, 2024 18:36:57 GMT
Some voters did elect Labour. And know what those who don't vote are doing ? Automatically delegating authority to those who do.
Labour got the most votes and the most seats because Reform split the Tory vote. That has to be respected, the election has been honoured.
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Jul 14, 2024 18:43:56 GMT
And yet in 2019 they voted differently Because the alternative was Jeremy 'my friends Hamas' Corbyn
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borgr0
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Post by borgr0 on Jul 14, 2024 19:05:17 GMT
Can't disagree with you there, but nonetheless, the people spoke and Brexit was a large reason behind it
It's not like Ed Siliband did much good before him, after all
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Post by Zany on Jul 14, 2024 21:20:32 GMT
And yet in 2019 they voted differently Yes against Corbyn.
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Post by Zany on Jul 14, 2024 21:22:48 GMT
Can't disagree with you there, but nonetheless, the people spoke and Brexit was a large reason behind it It's not like Ed Siliband did much good before him, after all Yes Corbyn got us Boris and Brexit. We are forever grateful.
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borgr0
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Post by borgr0 on Jul 15, 2024 0:33:04 GMT
Can't disagree with you there, but nonetheless, the people spoke and Brexit was a large reason behind it It's not like Ed Siliband did much good before him, after all Yes Corbyn got us Boris and Brexit. We are forever grateful. Yes, I know, it was all Corbyn's fault and not those in Labour who internally sabotaged him and would rather the Tories have won Just like it's all Trump's fault he just got shot and not the insane leftists who actually shot him
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borgr0
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Post by borgr0 on Jul 15, 2024 0:33:43 GMT
And yet in 2019 they voted differently Yes against Corbyn. And they voted against Sunak this time around. Your point? Starmer got a smaller vote share than Corbyn in 2019, how far are you going to keep digging a hole?
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Post by Zany on Jul 15, 2024 14:10:54 GMT
Yes Corbyn got us Boris and Brexit. We are forever grateful. Yes, I know, it was all Corbyn's fault and not those in Labour who internally sabotaged him and would rather the Tories have won Just like it's all Trump's fault he just got shot and not the insane leftists who actually shot him You could count me in on that. I voted Tory rather than have Corbyn. As far as I know Trump and Corbyn have nothing in common whatsoever.
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Post by patman post on Jul 15, 2024 15:00:51 GMT
eh? What's swing voters got to do with starmer getting half a million votes less than Corbyn , yet winning the election on a low turnout? Surely if swing voters couldnt stomach Corbyn , then it stands to reason that if starmer is popular (he's not, he's polling similar to richi sunak in terns of negative ratings) then labour should have taken more votes than Corbyn , and at least won a majority on the standard 40% margin? The. fact they couldnt suggests the opposite to what you are implying. I don't agree. The Tories were unpopular and Starmer was safe, if not charismatic. The Tories were unpopular but Corbyn was not safe. My opinion is that enough people voted to make sure Corbyn didn't get in. I know I did. My view too — most voters cast their votes to keep the Tories out. The used the system in use at the time. Opinion polls over a long period had shown Labour comfortably winning the coming election. So my interpretation is that some of the electorate swayed home and were happy to leave the Tory ousting to others. It seems clear that most voters voted to get that current Tory administration out. So they voted Labour — or they felt able to support Greens, LibDems, Reform, etc, just to register they were there while being fairly confident the Tories would be beaten. The election result was down to voters voting the ways they did…
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borgr0
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Post by borgr0 on Jul 15, 2024 17:18:32 GMT
Yes, I know, it was all Corbyn's fault and not those in Labour who internally sabotaged him and would rather the Tories have won Just like it's all Trump's fault he just got shot and not the insane leftists who actually shot him You could count me in on that. I voted Tory rather than have Corbyn. As far as I know Trump and Corbyn have nothing in common whatsoever. Fantastic You'd rather have Boris Johnson than Corbyn Labour are more Tory than Tories in most cases
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2024 17:33:34 GMT
I profoundly disagree. In 2019 Brexit was popular. The Tory leader promised to deliver it. Labour looked as if they were going all out to stop it. Your analysis above completely ignores the massive part Brexit played in that outcome. In spite of which Corbyn's Labour still got more votes than Starmer's Take a look at the polls on Brexit, then tell me it popular. It might have been popular among Corbynites. I remember that election. I remember asking other forum members when Labour were going to make a decision on a 2nd referendum. One minute it was on then off then maybe. Opinion has moved against Brexit now but the fact that a majority voted for it cannot be dismissed. As far as we on the left were concerned - setting aside your lazy labelling as Corbynites - we were actually split on Brexit. I for one opposed it and voted Remain. It was however never a top issue for us either way. Nevertheless, amongst Labour's working class former core vote Brexit was popular which fact allowed the Tories to smash the Red Wall. Because you yourself opposed Brexit you appear temperamentally incapable of recognising the massive part it played in the 2019 defeat. Because you believe Corbyn to have been a dangerous threat, not least because he threatened your ability to exploit zero hours contracts, it suits you temperamentally to assume that he is the sole and only reason for the scale of the defeat. But what seems clear is that you are allowing your own perceived interests and beliefs to skew your assessments.... Corbyn bad - so he must be entirely to blame for Labour's defeat. Labour's attempt to stymie Brexit good - so cannot be to blame for Labour's defeat. And thus your assessment of what happened is made to fit your own ideological assumptions. Which is of course very comforting.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2024 17:35:20 GMT
And yet in 2019 they voted differently Yes against Corbyn. And Brexit. If you cannot see that Brexit was a massive issue in 2019, you must have spent the year in an isolation unit.
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Post by brownlow on Jul 15, 2024 17:37:56 GMT
I don't agree. The Tories were unpopular and Starmer was safe, if not charismatic. The Tories were unpopular but Corbyn was not safe. My opinion is that enough people voted to make sure Corbyn didn't get in. I know I did. My view too — most voters cast their votes to keep the Tories out. The used the system in use at the time. Opinion polls over a long period had shown Labour comfortably winning the coming election. So my interpretation is that some of the electorate swayed home and were happy to leave the Tory ousting to others. It seems clear that most voters voted to get that current Tory administration out. So they voted Labour — or they felt able to support Greens, LibDems, Reform, etc, just to register they were there while being fairly confident the Tories would be beaten. The election result was down to voters voting the ways they did… Well no, voters mostly stayed home, i.e. didn't vote. FPTP elections have always been won and lost by differential abstention (to quote Harold Wilson). But this last one - a 'landslide victory' with fewer votes than the 'historic defeat' of the last election - indicates a failing democracy.
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Jul 15, 2024 18:10:27 GMT
And Brexit. If you cannot see that Brexit was a massive issue in 2019, you must have spent the year in an isolation unit. But so was Corbyn. By 2019 just about everyone had worked out that he was a liar over Brexit, a veteran leaver that decided to be part of Remain just to sabotage it. Result was in 2019 the Remain vote was split across parties, whereas once the Brexit party stopping opposing Tory candidates, the Leave vote had only Boris to vote for. This objective survey based article is also worth a read lordashcroftpolls.com/2019/12/was-it-really-brexit-wot-lost-it-for-labour/'Perhaps the starkest evidence of all on this question came midway through the campaign, when I asked voters what, if anything, they feared about a new Conservative or Labour government. In third place for Labour, “their plans might damage business and the economy.” Second, “they would spend too much and get Britain into more debt.” And top of the list? “Jeremy Corbyn being Prime Minister.”
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