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Post by andrewbrown on Jul 15, 2024 18:49:17 GMT
And yet in 2019 they voted differently Not really. Anti Brexit scored more votes than Tories and Brexit Party combined.
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Post by patman post on Jul 15, 2024 19:02:13 GMT
My view too — most voters cast their votes to keep the Tories out. The used the system in use at the time. Opinion polls over a long period had shown Labour comfortably winning the coming election. So my interpretation is that some of the electorate swayed home and were happy to leave the Tory ousting to others. It seems clear that most voters voted to get that current Tory administration out. So they voted Labour — or they felt able to support Greens, LibDems, Reform, etc, just to register they were there while being fairly confident the Tories would be beaten. The election result was down to voters voting the ways they did… Well no, voters mostly stayed home, i.e. didn't vote. FPTP elections have always been won and lost by differential abstention (to quote Harold Wilson). But this last one - a 'landslide victory' with fewer votes than the 'historic defeat' of the last election - indicates a failing democracy. Well no. I was making a distinction between actual voters and the remaining electorate who didn’t vote…
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2024 19:11:05 GMT
And Brexit. If you cannot see that Brexit was a massive issue in 2019, you must have spent the year in an isolation unit. But so was Corbyn. By 2019 just about everyone had worked out that he was a liar over Brexit, a veteran leaver that decided to be part of Remain just to sabotage it. Result was in 2019 the Remain vote was split across parties, whereas once the Brexit party stopping opposing Tory candidates, the Leave vote had only Boris to vote for. This objective survey based article is also worth a read lordashcroftpolls.com/2019/12/was-it-really-brexit-wot-lost-it-for-labour/'Perhaps the starkest evidence of all on this question came midway through the campaign, when I asked voters what, if anything, they feared about a new Conservative or Labour government. In third place for Labour, “their plans might damage business and the economy.” Second, “they would spend too much and get Britain into more debt.” And top of the list? “Jeremy Corbyn being Prime Minister.”I have always acknowledged that the unpopularity of Corbyn amongst certain demographics - particularly older tabloid readers who tend to vote in large numbers - was a significant factor. What I am not doing though - as Zany for one is doing - is dismissing the overwhelming influence of Brexit as a factor too. I also see Corbyn's alleged attempt to sabotage Remain as something of a conspiracy theory on your part. Fact is, he did not regard it as a primary area of personal interest and was happy in the end to let Starmer and other Remainers set policy in this area - to disastrous effect.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2024 19:15:47 GMT
And yet in 2019 they voted differently Not really. Anti Brexit scored more votes than Tories and Brexit Party combined. Yes but under our current voting system, the Brexit vote was strong where it made a difference, and there does remain the regrettable but undeniable fact that when asked, a narrow majority voted in favour of Brexit. All the polling evidence since then increasingly seems to be showing that more and more people are seeing it as a mistake, but at least until 2019 support for Brexit was high in just those places where it would likely do most damage to Labour. I was campaigning on the doorstep for Labour in my mostly working class estate during the 2019 election, and the anger from many former Labour supporters at what they perceived as Labour's attempt to subvert their expressed will on Brexit was palpable. When you encounter this on the doorstep substantially more often than you encounter distrust for Corbyn - though you encountered that too - you know Brexit is going to play badly for the party. And so it was.
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Post by Zany on Jul 15, 2024 19:54:25 GMT
Take a look at the polls on Brexit, then tell me it popular. It might have been popular among Corbynites. I remember that election. I remember asking other forum members when Labour were going to make a decision on a 2nd referendum. One minute it was on then off then maybe. Opinion has moved against Brexit now but the fact that a majority voted for it cannot be dismissed. As far as we on the left were concerned - setting aside your lazy labelling as Corbynites - we were actually split on Brexit. I for one opposed it and voted Remain. It was however never a top issue for us either way. Nevertheless, amongst Labour's working class former core vote Brexit was popular which fact allowed the Tories to smash the Red Wall. Because you yourself opposed Brexit you appear temperamentally incapable of recognising the massive part it played in the 2019 defeat. Because you believe Corbyn to have been a dangerous threat, Deleted personal insult. But what seems clear is that you are allowing your own perceived interests and beliefs to skew your assessments.... Corbyn bad - so he must be entirely to blame for Labour's defeat. Labour's attempt to stymie Brexit good - so cannot be to blame for Labour's defeat. And thus your assessment of what happened is made to fit your own ideological assumptions. Which is of course very comforting. Opinion moved against it within a year of the referendum when people woke up to the fact there had been no preparation. Corbynites is not lazy labelling its just a term that's easy to understand. A group of Labour supporters who didn't like New Labour and are further left. Au contraire. I believe the reason Boris got his supposed support for 'get Brexit done' was because the alternative was Corbyn and 1974 style politics. And who does not let their preconceived interests and beliefs skew their assessments. You as much as any.
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borgr0
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Post by borgr0 on Jul 15, 2024 20:02:33 GMT
And yet in 2019 they voted differently Not really. Anti Brexit scored more votes than Tories and Brexit Party combined. And yet it's your Labour Party who refuse to implement PR, so take it up with them. Blair had the chance after 1997, but we all know they are undemocratic so and so's who are really as bad as the Reform Party and Tories. Oh and Steve, here is someone echoing your point about the 2019 election. So it's not just you after all is it? Why did Swinson lose so badly...?
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Post by Zany on Jul 15, 2024 20:02:41 GMT
Corbyn had split support on Brexit as SRB states. That was part of the problem. One minute he was offering a second referendum the next not. Corbyn was no more honest than any other politician.
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borgr0
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Post by borgr0 on Jul 15, 2024 20:03:46 GMT
Corbyn had split support on Brexit as SRB states. That was part of the problem. One minute he was offering a second referendum the next not. Corbyn was no more honest than any other politician. Yup, yet they treated him like a terrorist, what's that tell you?
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Post by Zany on Jul 15, 2024 20:04:41 GMT
Corbyn had split support on Brexit as SRB states. That was part of the problem. One minute he was offering a second referendum the next not. Corbyn was no more honest than any other politician. Yup, yet they treated him like a terrorist, what's that tell you? It tells me you have a vivid imagination.
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borgr0
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Post by borgr0 on Jul 15, 2024 20:13:42 GMT
Yup, yet they treated him like a terrorist, what's that tell you? It tells me you have a vivid imagination. That's the latest gaslighting fantasy is it from Labour HQ?
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Post by Zany on Jul 15, 2024 20:29:56 GMT
It tells me you have a vivid imagination. That's the latest gaslighting fantasy is it from Labour HQ? You over estimate my powers.
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borgr0
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Post by borgr0 on Jul 15, 2024 20:44:48 GMT
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Jul 15, 2024 20:55:32 GMT
But so was Corbyn. By 2019 just about everyone had worked out that he was a liar over Brexit, a veteran leaver that decided to be part of Remain just to sabotage it. Result was in 2019 the Remain vote was split across parties, whereas once the Brexit party stopping opposing Tory candidates, the Leave vote had only Boris to vote for. This objective survey based article is also worth a read lordashcroftpolls.com/2019/12/was-it-really-brexit-wot-lost-it-for-labour/'Perhaps the starkest evidence of all on this question came midway through the campaign, when I asked voters what, if anything, they feared about a new Conservative or Labour government. In third place for Labour, “their plans might damage business and the economy.” Second, “they would spend too much and get Britain into more debt.” And top of the list? “Jeremy Corbyn being Prime Minister.”I have always acknowledged that the unpopularity of Corbyn amongst certain demographics - particularly older tabloid readers who tend to vote in large numbers - was a significant factor. What I am not doing though - as Zany for one is doing - is dismissing the overwhelming influence of Brexit as a factor too. I also see Corbyn's alleged attempt to sabotage Remain as something of a conspiracy theory on your part. Fact is, he did not regard it as a primary area of personal interest and was happy in the end to let Starmer and other Remainers set policy in this area - to disastrous effect. Only if you accept the it was all about Brexit theory.
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Post by Steve on Jul 15, 2024 20:57:47 GMT
Not really. Anti Brexit scored more votes than Tories and Brexit Party combined. And yet it's your Labour Party who refuse to implement PR, so take it up with them. Blair had the chance after 1997, but we all know they are undemocratic so and so's who are really as bad as the Reform Party and Tories. Oh and Steve, here is someone echoing your point about the 2019 election. So it's not just you after all is it? Why did Swinson lose so badly...? Because she was stupid and Farage had exposed her as such during the campaign by completely playing her.
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Post by andrewbrown on Jul 15, 2024 21:47:12 GMT
Not really. Anti Brexit scored more votes than Tories and Brexit Party combined. And yet it's your Labour Party who refuse to implement PR, so take it up with them. Blair had the chance after 1997, but we all know they are undemocratic so and so's who are really as bad as the Reform Party and Tories. Oh and Steve, here is someone echoing your point about the 2019 election. So it's not just you after all is it? Why did Swinson lose so badly...? I think you have me wrong. I'm not a Labour supporter (although I much prefer a Labour government over a Tory one) I am in favour of PR. I voted for AV in the 2011 referendum and am a member of "Make Votes Matter", which campaigns for PR.
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