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Post by vinny on Jul 10, 2024 8:34:55 GMT
At what point will you recognise that terrorists entered the EU, traveled across it and their atrocities influenced Nigel's breaking point argument? Prior to ISIS terrorism he was arguing for Syrian refugees to be given asylum (argument was made on BBC news and is still on their website, dated December 2013). www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-25539843After some pretty horrible terrorist atrocities and the statement by ISIS that they wanted to flood Europe, his arguments changed. Should the EU have stopped refugees fleeing Syria crossing its borders to stop terrorists. Nigel never did explain. Refugees fleeing Syria should have been assessed in Lebanon and offered safe passage from UN refugee camps to other safe countries in the UN including the UK. That way, men of fighting age could be screened out, women and children and the elderly allowed in.
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Post by Orac on Jul 10, 2024 9:01:17 GMT
No. I didn't say I wouldn't help. I just wouldn't have let them into Europe. The Issue i highlighted was that 'all come ,first served (with other people's money)' invitation. It illustrated a weakness. without internal borders, it only takes one lunatic to bring the whole thing down. How would you have helped. Bare in mind Turkey had already taken over 3.7million. One of an uncountable large number of possible options, that would allow us to help people without allowing them into Europe. It is absolutely vital that these people are not let into Europe because of the incentives this creates. I see Merkel's invitation as essentially a calculated, deliberate assault on the people of Europe.
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Steve
Hero Protagonist
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Post by Steve on Jul 10, 2024 9:28:07 GMT
It isn't irrelevant to the Breaking Point poster, because that's exactly what Nigel was saying at the time. Therefore how was he "racist" for making the point about ISIS trying to "flood" the EU and the EU not doing enough about illegal immigration and terrorism? His poster was blatantly racist, get over it.
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Post by vinny on Jul 10, 2024 10:43:36 GMT
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Post by Zany on Jul 10, 2024 12:43:32 GMT
Should the EU have stopped refugees fleeing Syria crossing its borders to stop terrorists. Nigel never did explain. Refugees fleeing Syria should have been assessed in Lebanon and offered safe passage from UN refugee camps to other safe countries in the UN including the UK. That way, men of fighting age could be screened out, women and children and the elderly allowed in. Be realistic. There were over 14 million people who fled Syria. Lebanon could not have coped. As for screening out men of fighting age. They were fighting Russian Jets and nerve gas with AK47's
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borgr0
Observer
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Post by borgr0 on Jul 10, 2024 12:46:22 GMT
They've been voting for him a long time, it's only FPTP that's prevented him for having a seat for this long (and dirty Tory tactics as in 2015) So what? It took him 30 years to finally obtain a seat in the HoC with the help of billionaire Richard Tice bankrolling his party - and you call that a success? Are you saying Racism is not a growing issue? Are you saying that Brexit didn't happen because Farage convinced people that their jobs were being taken by Polls and Romanians. That his huge poster showing Turks queuing up to enter Britain did not chime with his supporters? Call it Nationalism (Little Britain) if you prefer, it amounts to the same thing and its getting worse. Never said any of that These parties rise and fall with the tide of sentiment, they usually destroy themselves before too long anyway
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Post by Zany on Jul 10, 2024 12:46:55 GMT
How would you have helped. Bare in mind Turkey had already taken over 3.7million. One of an uncountable large number of possible options, that would allow us to help people without allowing them into Europe. It is absolutely vital that these people are not let into Europe because of the incentives this creates. I see Merkel's invitation as essentially a calculated, deliberate assault on the people of Europe. I see Merkel's decision as no other choice. There was no sensible way that many refugees could be dealt with at the border. Millions would have starved, disease would have killed millions more. Do do wish you'd put some thought into your solutions and a bit of research before you post.
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borgr0
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Posts: 1,188
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Post by borgr0 on Jul 10, 2024 12:47:39 GMT
And Russia, Belarus have also flooded Europe with migrants on purpose, as have others It's also a fact that Hungary flooded Germany with migrants as it did Austria, because it wanted them gone and wouldn't process them I thought Hungary was an alt-right country that wanted to not flood Europe with such? There's the problem with fingering Merkel with all the blame in 2015 because Hungary did that in 2015 AND 2016. She can't control what Hungary does, she can only deal with its effects. She did allow too many people in, 1 million was too many, so Europe should have shared the burden and screened them better.
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borgr0
Observer
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Post by borgr0 on Jul 10, 2024 12:50:33 GMT
Of course Farage is racist, maybe you didn't see that poster during the Brexit campaign? To label Farage centre-right as opposed to far-right when 1 in 10 of his party's candidates were friends with the modern British Union of Fascist founder Gary Raikes is hilarious. How many did they have to suspend for open racism again? The poster which made a point about numbers and uncontrolled immigration? Yes I saw it, it was influenced by this: What was racist about it? It was a point about illegal immigration being mishandled and everything being overwhelmed by sheer numbers. And before the referendum "the Jungle" in Calais had not been cleared. And this sort of thing was a regular occurrence in Calais. Illegal economic migrants are not asylum seekers, and if you remember, the November 2015 Paris terrorists had crossed multiple EU borders unimpeded. The EU's border and immigration system was broken. The numbers have gone down massively in years since, that's the bit they don't tell you. They've only started to rise again recently. And yes the poster is blatantly racist. Farage himself also is blatantly racist, when at school people attested to hearing him shout about how great the Nazis were. www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nigel-farage-fascist-nazi-song-gas-them-all-ukip-brexit-schoolfriend-dulwich-college-a7185236.htmlOh dear......... Farage didn't even deny this BTW when questioned
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Post by Zany on Jul 10, 2024 13:05:34 GMT
Are you saying Racism is not a growing issue? Are you saying that Brexit didn't happen because Farage convinced people that their jobs were being taken by Polls and Romanians. That his huge poster showing Turks queuing up to enter Britain did not chime with his supporters? Call it Nationalism (Little Britain) if you prefer, it amounts to the same thing and its getting worse. Never said any of that These parties rise and fall with the tide of sentiment, they usually destroy themselves before too long anyway Apologies Borgr0. I think I've quoted you by mistake. My points don't appear to relate to your post at all. Had a quick look but can't see who I was answering. Sorry.
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Post by Orac on Jul 10, 2024 13:14:52 GMT
One of an uncountable large number of possible options, that would allow us to help people without allowing them into Europe. It is absolutely vital that these people are not let into Europe because of the incentives this creates. I see Merkel's invitation as essentially a calculated, deliberate assault on the people of Europe. I see Merkel's decision as no other choice. There was no sensible way that many refugees could be dealt with at the border. Millions would have starved, disease would have killed millions more. Do do wish you'd put some thought into your solutions and a bit of research before you post. Not at all.There was no need to take them into (allow them to break into) Europe or issue an open invitation. As I inferred earlier, it is people like yourself, who will not settle for a non-suicidal arrangement, who have lumped us with this problem
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Post by Zany on Jul 10, 2024 14:12:50 GMT
I see Merkel's decision as no other choice. There was no sensible way that many refugees could be dealt with at the border. Millions would have starved, disease would have killed millions more. Do do wish you'd put some thought into your solutions and a bit of research before you post. Not at all.There was no need to take them into (allow them to break into) Europe or issue an open invitation. As I inferred earlier, it is people like yourself, who will not settle for a non-suicidal arrangement, who have lumped us with this problem You keep saying not at all, but you have no working alternative. Tacking an insult to 'people like myself' does not give an answer to how you deal with 14 million refugees. last chance to put something workable forward or I have to assume you would just let them die. Either of hunger and disease or shot by our soldiers trying to cross in the EU. And using the words "non suicidal" is just absolute bollox. BTW 65 million refugees fled the Nazis in ww2 and none of the nations taking them in committed suicide.
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Post by Orac on Jul 10, 2024 15:33:13 GMT
Not at all.There was no need to take them into (allow them to break into) Europe or issue an open invitation. As I inferred earlier, it is people like yourself, who will not settle for a non-suicidal arrangement, who have lumped us with this problem You keep saying not at all, but you have no working alternative. Tacking an insult to 'people like myself' does not give an answer to how you deal with 14 million refugees. The working solution would be to provide help and not let them in. However, people like yourself insist we must engage the unpractical, unsustainable, nay suicidal, technique of giving away our territory - and that's a large part of the reason there were millions (it's giant give-away). You cannot sustain a policy in which, every time a shit-hole has a war, they get to move their itinerant population into our territory - you are setting up bad incentives that will, if pursued for long enough, leave you desolated I suggest that you are happy enough with this 'absurd' solution because you are able to keep the bum end of the real costs far enough away from your doorstep (it's really at the expense of others - for now)
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Post by Zany on Jul 10, 2024 16:36:19 GMT
You keep saying not at all, but you have no working alternative. Tacking an insult to 'people like myself' does not give an answer to how you deal with 14 million refugees. The working solution would be to provide help and not let them in. However, people like yourself insist we must engage the unpractical, unsustainable, nay suicidal, technique of giving away our territory - and that's a large part of the reason there were millions (it's giant give-away). You cannot sustain a policy in which, every time a shit-hole has a war, they get to move their itinerant population into our territory - you are setting up bad incentives that will, if pursued for long enough, leave you desolated I suggest that you are happy enough with this 'absurd' solution because you are able to keep the bum end of the real costs far enough away from your doorstep (it's really at the expense of others - for now) Fine so you don't have a working solution. Providing help to 14 million people outside of existing infrastructure is impossible. Just think of the human waste alone. And the lorries carry daily food for 14 million people. They had to be split up and shared out across Europe.
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Steve
Hero Protagonist
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Post by Steve on Jul 10, 2024 22:12:33 GMT
It was a shameless piece of racism using a poster filled with non white faces to represent freedom of movement. You appalud such if you which. When asked about it Farage refused to defend it other than 'it worked' news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/12051902.pdf
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