|
|
Post by montegriffo on Sept 1, 2024 20:17:25 GMT
Yup, they'll save the nice things for election time. I think they are making political decisions about who to hit with tough choices with political calculation. The number crunchers have been working out who always votes for them and who are likely to continue to do so if they are not hit too hard. And there are the ones who sometimes vote for them or who are potentially persuadable. They don't want to hit these too hard either and will probably have sweeteners in mind for them before the next election. And then there are the ones who never vote for them and never will. I think they have coldly calculated that hitting these hard will not hurt Labour very much, especially if it goes down well with the other two groups. The third group probably includes the better off pensioners, and also probably private landlords as well. These are the two groups who are most likely to get a kicking, and if they do it will have nothing to do with the rights and wrongs of doing so and everything to do with cold calculation. But they also want to improve things gradually and be seen to get the housing crisis being tackled. This gives private landlords some leverage if they can logically demonstrate that this or that course of action will actually make things worse. So they might be able to dissuade the powers that be from hitting them too much. Better off pensioners - except for the ones who are also landlords - have no such leverage beyond the threat of not voting Labour. But since they never do anyway it makes zero difference and is thus a totally ineffective threat. What could make Labour look bad in the eyes of people who might otherwise vote for them would be the sight of pensioners struggling in the cold and even freezing to death. This is the last thing Labour wants because it will repel people from supporting them. Which is why I suspect more help for poorer pensioners just a little above the pension credit threshold whilst hammering the richer ones in some other additional way. I am not saying any of the above is right, just explaining what is likely to be their thinking. I'm not a supporter of Labour but I'm more convinced that they want to do the 'right' thing than the Tories, who for the most part seem more interested in lining their own pockets than helping others. If I were in charge everyone would find life harder for the sake of the environment. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2024 18:05:35 GMT
If I could have Labour do anything I wanted, it would be fairly simple: fix the cuts to 2m pensioners' WFA, cut the cronyism out so you don't end up looking like the Tories, cut the links to shady thinktanks, honestly look at how the entire system needs to be reformed from the bottom up (yes you're risking being booted out of power swiftly for even bringing this subject up, a risk you have to be willing to take if you want to make real change) - you're going to have to do unbelievably unpopular things like reform the entire house of commons' expenses system, the lords, the way the monarch can lobby government to have things their way - there's so many things that are wrong in the country right now
Above and beyond that with the economy you're going to have to look at pissing off the rich, who are your donors, because they simply aren't paying enough taxes and you're going to have to upset many of the poor (Brexiters) by simply saying we need better links with the EU - pandering isn't going to work at this point. You're also going to have to point out that automation and AI in the future is going to mean things like a UBI may have to be introduced, which is really going to upset a lot of people, you're going to have to be honest with people and say large %s of jobs are going to disappear in the medium-term and there isn't much that can be done about it
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2024 18:06:46 GMT
Think of it this way, Clement Attlee sacrificed his political career to give us the NHS, then Churchill got back in - that's basically what you're going to have to do isn't it, if you want to make real lasting change. The thing is, if you make the change lasting enough, the next government will thank you for doing the hard work for them and won't necessarily reverse it - as Churchill only minorly reversed some changes with the NHS when he got back in in 1951
|
|
|
|
Post by dappy on Sept 2, 2024 19:10:15 GMT
If I could have Labour do anything I wanted, it would be fairly simple: fix the cuts to 2m pensioners' WFA, cut the cronyism out so you don't end up looking like the Tories, cut the links to shady thinktanks, honestly look at how the entire system needs to be reformed from the bottom up (yes you're risking being booted out of power swiftly for even bringing this subject up, a risk you have to be willing to take if you want to make real change) - you're going to have to do unbelievably unpopular things like reform the entire house of commons' expenses system, the lords, the way the monarch can lobby government to have things their way - there's so many things that are wrong in the country right now Above and beyond that with the economy you're going to have to look at pissing off the rich, who are your donors, because they simply aren't paying enough taxes and you're going to have to upset many of the poor (Brexiters) by simply saying we need better links with the EU - pandering isn't going to work at this point. You're also going to have to point out that automation and AI in the future is going to mean things like a UBI may have to be introduced, which is really going to upset a lot of people, you're going to have to be honest with people and say large %s of jobs are going to disappear in the medium-term and there isn't much that can be done about it Of all the daunting number of major problems with our country that our current and future government need to fix, very little of your first paragraph gets remotely near the top of the page. AI will almost certainly not happen in exactly the way predicted - I am old enough to remember Tomorrow’s world. Change will undoubtedly come - perhaps helping us cope with the falling birth rate ageing population perhaps causing almost unmanageable global tensions which threaten major conflict and perhaps the future of mankind itself. At this stage it’s impossible to know exactly how it will play out. |
|
Steve
Hero Protagonist
Posts: 3,633
|
Post by Steve on Sept 2, 2024 19:27:46 GMT
Think of it this way, Clement Attlee sacrificed his political career to give us the NHS, . . I've never heard of that before. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2024 21:55:27 GMT
If I could have Labour do anything I wanted, it would be fairly simple: fix the cuts to 2m pensioners' WFA, cut the cronyism out so you don't end up looking like the Tories, cut the links to shady thinktanks, honestly look at how the entire system needs to be reformed from the bottom up (yes you're risking being booted out of power swiftly for even bringing this subject up, a risk you have to be willing to take if you want to make real change) - you're going to have to do unbelievably unpopular things like reform the entire house of commons' expenses system, the lords, the way the monarch can lobby government to have things their way - there's so many things that are wrong in the country right now Above and beyond that with the economy you're going to have to look at pissing off the rich, who are your donors, because they simply aren't paying enough taxes and you're going to have to upset many of the poor (Brexiters) by simply saying we need better links with the EU - pandering isn't going to work at this point. You're also going to have to point out that automation and AI in the future is going to mean things like a UBI may have to be introduced, which is really going to upset a lot of people, you're going to have to be honest with people and say large %s of jobs are going to disappear in the medium-term and there isn't much that can be done about it Of all the daunting number of major problems with our country that our current and future government need to fix, very little of your first paragraph gets remotely near the top of the page. Suggest you look at Labour's own manifesto where they pledge to fix the House of Lords The way the govt operates seems like a daunting problem to most people Pretty sure the global consensus is that AI will be a gamechanger and so will automation of jobs |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2024 22:00:40 GMT
Think of it this way, Clement Attlee sacrificed his political career to give us the NHS, . . I've never heard of that before. Ok, not just the NHS - also these things: www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/education/resources/attlees-britain/The large scale nationalizations and general socialist program in the end proved to be too much for people and they chose Churchill a second time, understandable as he was basically a hero of the country, same with latter prime ministers (no matter how disastrous they proved to be at governing in peacetime) I'm saying that these efforts were necessary and the right thing to do at the time, even though they proved unpopular in the end |
|
Steve
Hero Protagonist
Posts: 3,633
|
Post by Steve on Sept 2, 2024 22:10:53 GMT
Attlee is a strong contender to have been the best Labour leader of all time, his government changed so much for the good and his deputy PM record in WW2 has been widely praised. He actually won the popular vote in every post war election he fought but somehow Churchill got more seats in 51.
As I heard it from my parents, going into that election still planning to have some food rationing was what lost it for him.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2024 22:23:46 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by AvonCalling on Sept 3, 2024 12:44:38 GMT
If I could have Labour do anything I wanted, it would be fairly simple: fix the cuts to 2m pensioners' WFA, cut the cronyism out so you don't end up looking like the Tories, cut the links to shady thinktanks, honestly look at how the entire system needs to be reformed from the bottom up (yes you're risking being booted out of power swiftly for even bringing this subject up, a risk you have to be willing to take if you want to make real change) - you're going to have to do unbelievably unpopular things like reform the entire house of commons' expenses system, the lords, the way the monarch can lobby government to have things their way - there's so many things that are wrong in the country right now Above and beyond that with the economy you're going to have to look at pissing off the rich, who are your donors, because they simply aren't paying enough taxes and you're going to have to upset many of the poor (Brexiters) by simply saying we need better links with the EU - pandering isn't going to work at this point. You're also going to have to point out that automation and AI in the future is going to mean things like a UBI may have to be introduced, which is really going to upset a lot of people, you're going to have to be honest with people and say large %s of jobs are going to disappear in the medium-term and there isn't much that can be done about it I have to agree that these do not really rank as my highest concerns (my highest concerns being about other people not myself). The WFA for poorest pensioners is a issue but housing and wages have to be high because the very concept of "working poor" is just WRONG. And that needs fixing be it doing something with wages or something with houses. It's like Zany said a while back if the system disenfranchises the young so they stop bothering because they see no way of getting on any ladder then it's a bad situation all round. I feel a bit like Mr Benn (I may be interpreting your position wrong) in relation to well off pensioners because whilst I don;t want them freezing to death I think investment should go on the young not pandering to pensioners for votes |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2024 22:50:04 GMT
I think you focus on those things after working on fixing the root problems of the system; if you don't address the root problems, everything else rots from the bottom up
Of course, you can't fix everything that's wrong, but they could do a lot more. The system can't even be reformed properly, and many of the things you outline might not even be possible unless you do at least some fixing of the root problems themselves, IMHO
|
|
