Steve
Hero Protagonist
Posts: 3,633
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Post by Steve on Sept 22, 2024 15:32:16 GMT
I didn't say proletariat. Not a term that aids debate. Anyway can't give you a direct reference but it was around the time of his interventions into socialist debate that the 'ownership of means of production' by the community came into the fore, eventually leading to that thankfully long dumped idiot Clause 4 that led the Labour party into a dead end. Where did Marx say that socialism and non-private ownership of the means of production go hand in hand? I've never heard of that. I have Anyway do you really not remember that idiot Clause 4 wording that Labour used to drive themselves to near extinction 'To secure for the workers by hand or by brain the full fruits of their industry and the most equitable distribution thereof that may be possible upon the basis of the common ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange, and the best obtainable system of popular administration and control of each industry or service'
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Post by Saint on Sept 22, 2024 15:35:54 GMT
Where did Marx say that socialism and non-private ownership of the means of production go hand in hand? I've never heard of that. I have I'm struggling to think where you could have heard that.
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Steve
Hero Protagonist
Posts: 3,633
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Post by Steve on Sept 22, 2024 15:43:15 GMT
I'm struggling to think where you could have heard that. I'm sorry neither Google or Bing work for you www.investopedia.com/terms/m/marxism.asp 'Marxist theories were influential in the development of socialism, which advocates for the shared ownership of the means of production by workers.'
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Post by Saint on Sept 22, 2024 15:49:51 GMT
I'm struggling to think where you could have heard that. I'm sorry neither Google or Bing work for you www.investopedia.com/terms/m/marxism.asp 'Marxist theories were influential in the development of socialism, which advocates for the shared ownership of the means of production by workers.'That is NOT socialism. Social is something like you see in Sweden. Communism requires joint ownership of the means of production. And what do you think you achieved with your comment 'I'm sorry neither Google or Bing work for you?'. If someone can be green inked for merely suggesting that a poll should have a third option, I should imagine you can expect to see some red ink for the above.
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Steve
Hero Protagonist
Posts: 3,633
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Post by Steve on Sept 22, 2024 15:52:02 GMT
Just sarcasm Saint.
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Steve
Hero Protagonist
Posts: 3,633
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Post by Steve on Sept 22, 2024 15:54:28 GMT
I'm sorry neither Google or Bing work for you www.investopedia.com/terms/m/marxism.asp 'Marxist theories were influential in the development of socialism, which advocates for the shared ownership of the means of production by workers.'That is NOT socialism. Social is something like you see in Sweden. Communism requires joint ownership of the means of production. . . No Communism is common ownership of everything, no private possesions just temporary custodianship where that suits the collective need. It doesn't work.
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Post by Saint on Sept 22, 2024 15:58:52 GMT
That is NOT socialism. Social is something like you see in Sweden. Communism requires joint ownership of the means of production. . . No Communism is common ownership of everything, no private possesions just temporary custodianship where that suits the collective need. It doesn't work. Sweden is a socialist country. There isn't state ownership of the means of production. Communism doesn't work? How do you know? As stated previously, communism can only work under certain conditions. Nobody has tried to establish it under those conditions, as far as I'm aware.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2024 16:33:07 GMT
And I have a poster of Che Guevarra on my wall, and another of Chairman Mao, with a copy of Das Kapital in my back pocket. When not working for Tesco I am having furtive conversations in backrooms with my fellow communist revolutionaries, such as Steve and Monte. I regularly advertise world communism by calling for a fairer deal for tenants and the working poor and stating boldly that inequality is too damagingly great. You can't get more communist than that. The fact that I was once a member of a political party to the left Genghis Khan is surely damning. MI5 must have a file on dangerous communists like me. On the other hand, believing that Liz Truss was brought down by the global elite, wealthy financiers and bankers, the liberal woke establishment, City traders, and other well known communists makes total sense, naturally. You've not worked it out yet Benn. Orac is a Communist, he is building the cause by demonstrating just how bad the alternative is. Lol, he is certainly not helping his own cause.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2024 16:39:59 GMT
That's all very well, but I bet you're not barred from having access to anything sharp when painting sunflowers.... Yes painting is a very bad sign. Yes. Hitler was a painter before he turned to rabble rousing. Mind you, would have been better if he'd been a more successful painter. Perhaps Orac ought to take up painting.
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Post by montegriffo on Sept 22, 2024 16:59:40 GMT
It is very wrong to conflate the very different socialism and communism. The more demented and dishonest USA politicians do it regularly. Just to be clear, I'm not equating the two. But Marx saw socialism as the gateway to communism. I think that's back to front. Communism was the means by which socialism would be achieved. The ultimate goal being socialism not communism.
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Post by Saint on Sept 22, 2024 17:05:45 GMT
Just to be clear, I'm not equating the two. But Marx saw socialism as the gateway to communism. I think that's back to front. Communism was the means by which socialism would be achieved. The ultimate goal being socialism not communism. Not for Marx, it wasn't.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2024 17:17:32 GMT
That is NOT socialism. Social is something like you see in Sweden. Communism requires joint ownership of the means of production. . . No Communism is common ownership of everything, no private possesions just temporary custodianship where that suits the collective need. It doesn't work. It doesn't work because whilst humans have an innate concept of fairness, they also have an innate tendency to want to own things they desire. Socialism can work up to a point by focussing on the former if it fully acknowledges and works with the latter. Any system that tries to abolish all forms of individual ownership is cutting so deeply against the grain of human nature that it is doomed to fail. Communism in it's purest form is too close to the latter to ever really work. Also the notion of a revolution leading to a dictatorship of the proletariat which will gradually wither as centralised power becomes unnecessary is highly flawed and against the grain of human nature too. Firstly most people are not ideologically driven so communists tend to be forced to see themselves as a leadership cadre there to infuse the workers with the desired class consciousness. Thus dictatorship of the proletariat tends to be the dictatorship of this ideological elite. And people entrenched in power will all too easily succumb to the personal corruption that becomes possible. They also tend to desire to retain total power for themselves, so the dictatorship not only tends towards corruption, but never willingly relinquishes its power, which does not just wither away. In this sense too communist assumptions do not allow for human nature. Also the Marxist interpretation of history and predictions of the future which are central to communist ideology was flawed from the start. For one thing it was conceived at a time when democracy was not seriously yet considered and where the standard method of regime change was revolution. Marx extrapolated what he thought he was seeing mid-19th century into the future and assumed that the workers would get ever poorer and more exploited by the wealthy elites until they were inevitably driven to revolt and revolution resulting in them taking control. What was not at the time envisaged is that the ruling elites might concede power to the people themselves by increased levels of democracy and that people would be offered at least the illusion of real change via the ballot box. Nor was it really envisaged that the lot of workers might get better rather than worse via increased prosperity and also granting them things that they might desire to improve their lot like cheap housing, welfare support in times of need, health care, and pensions, plus education for their kids. So Marx was just plain wrong when he said that the lot of workers was doomed to get ever worse and that only revolution could change that. True, in more recent decades some Marxist economic predictions seem belatedly to be being born out, but eventually the corrective is likely to result from the ballot box rather than from barricades in the street. Orac's problem is that he seems to want to view every strand of leftish and socialist thinking as itself inherently communist, though seems rather coy at wanting to spell this out. In this he is demonstrating a lack of understanding of what communism actually is, at least insofar as it differs markedly from many other left leaning strands of thought. Zany's strand of leftism for example is nothing like the bona fide communism I have described above. So the accusation that he advertises world communism from time to time needs explaining in light of this, for which some broader definition of what communism is must surely be necessary. But Orac, shovel in hand, recognises that this is a hole he best not dig for himself and instead sees me as someone seeking to make him look stupid, hence the hostility. When in fact I have no interest whatsoever in making him look stupid, merely in exposing the inherent stupidity of his ideological assumptions. But the comments of others in this thread - even if said in jest - tend to suggest that most have figured it out already
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Post by dappy on Sept 22, 2024 18:14:21 GMT
If you think Orac is a bit of a prat, try to ignore him. I think it would be a great shame if you chose to leave. To be fair to Orac he does seem to keep a strict Chinese wall between his site ownership and his site posting.
Doesn’t feel like this has been a good weekend for a forum already struggling for viability. I hope it gets through the blow.
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Post by Zany on Sept 22, 2024 18:26:39 GMT
Yes painting is a very bad sign. Yes. Hitler was a painter before he turned to rabble rousing. Mind you, would have been better if he'd been a more successful painter. Perhaps Orac ought to take up painting. Definitely bad and mad, painting.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2024 18:49:16 GMT
If you think Orac is a bit of a prat, try to ignore him. I think it would be a great shame if you chose to leave. To be fair to Orac he does seem to keep a strict Chinese wall between his site ownership and his site posting. Doesn’t feel like this has been a good weekend for a forum already struggling for viability. I hope it gets through the blow.In my opinion the rot began with Wapentake being made to feel unwelcome and attacked for not being as clear as he might have been but we c an all be guilty of that. Admins making personal attacks is not helpful either. And our mod being made to feel that he is not wanted in the role is also unhelpful. All these things have happened in the last week, and it is leading me to question my continuation on this forum, though with no further animosity directed at me yet I have still been posting today. It has definitely been a bad week for the forum. The unique selling point of this forum is that it is different from and better than all the others. It has not seemed to be this week.
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