Steve
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Post by Steve on Oct 9, 2024 21:42:35 GMT
Nah, always try cock-up theory before conspiracy theory. Just because the ultra Zionists wanted it does not mean they managed to effect it. At the very least they milked an opportunity. 40,000 dead! And even Israel only claims half of those were Hamas AND Israel uses a very wide definition of Hamas in that. A civil servant administrator in a Hams run territory is not a combatant. Anyone that thinks a 1 for 1 ratio of killing civilians for combatants is just fine is seriously evil minded, anyone implementing it should be locked up. And as stated, the ratio is likely much much worse. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2024 21:45:27 GMT
Netanyahu is a patriot who means well
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, no one should be locked up for an opinion and no one who supports him is 'seriously evil minded'. They want to protect what's theirs: as do Hamas. Those who support Hamas aren't "evil minded" either, they just abide by the fact that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter
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Steve
Hero Protagonist
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Post by Steve on Oct 9, 2024 21:49:40 GMT
Ordering and gloating about mass bombing in urban areas using 1 tonne Mk84s (which we now know were unguided) after publicly saying 'no restraint' isn't 'having an opinion' it is putting that opinion (that Arabs' lives don't matter, that Jews should run all of Palestine) into murderous action.
And Hamas are worse.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2024 21:51:48 GMT
They are both patriots. They both care about their country and want to do what's best for theirs, they just have different ideas on how to do it.
Everyone is imperfect and if some imperfect beings gloat about it, it doesn't equate to the entire movement gloating about it nor does it mean they are always like that: they could be having a bad day or have lost a family member and feel vengeful. Everyone can suffer that, we must accept humans are only human.
What we need is a concerted push for a ceasefire, less condemnation and none of this "we will never negotiate with terrorists" rhetoric in any country in the world. We need to stop judging others at all and simply push for peace
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Post by Zany on Oct 9, 2024 22:19:12 GMT
Netanyahu is a patriot who means well One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, no one should be locked up for an opinion and no one who supports him is 'seriously evil minded'. They want to protect what's theirs: as do Hamas. Those who support Hamas aren't "evil minded" either, they just abide by the fact that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter But we are also free to decide. Personally I have little doubt Hamas and Hezbollah are evil minded religious zealots. I also think Netanyahu is an nepotistic aspiring warlord. The West should be stopping the killing of innocent people. As it stands they are giving more than tacit approval to Israel while pretending Gaza is just war and totally ignoring the land grabbing, beatings, expulsions in the West bank that lead to this. Can you answer this sensibly Borg0 or are you having too much fun? |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2024 22:31:06 GMT
What makes you think I'm having fun talking about children being killed?
I am telling you very much straightforwardly that I believe they don't deserve condemnation and believe in their own forms of patriotism
That isn't fun, nor is it bad faith, nor is it trolling, it is a sincerely held belief
The West engages in its own killing of innocent people much of the time, we are imperfect as are they. Are we nepotistic aspiring war lords? No, we're imperfect beings
What needs to happen is a ceasefire needs to be brokered and peace around the world must prevail as I've said endlessly.
What you see as evil religious zealotry, Lebanese see as their freedom fighters. What you see as evil Hamas, Palestinians see as their liberators.
What you see as Likud terrorism, many Israelis see as their only hope for not being killed in pogrom
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Oct 9, 2024 23:51:07 GMT
They are both patriots. They both care about their country and want to do what's best for theirs, they just have different ideas on how to do it. . . All the evidence is they just want what's best for themselves |
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Post by Zany on Oct 10, 2024 6:22:54 GMT
What makes you think I'm having fun talking about children being killed? I am telling you very much straightforwardly that I believe they don't deserve condemnation and believe in their own forms of patriotism That isn't fun, nor is it bad faith, nor is it trolling, it is a sincerely held belief The West engages in its own killing of innocent people much of the time, we are imperfect as are they. Are we nepotistic aspiring war lords? No, we're imperfect beings What needs to happen is a ceasefire needs to be brokered and peace around the world must prevail as I've said endlessly. What you see as evil religious zealotry, Lebanese see as their freedom fighters. What you see as evil Hamas, Palestinians see as their liberators. What you see as Likud terrorism, many Israelis see as their only hope for not being killed in pogrom Of course yours is a sincere belief, there cannot be many souls who think children dying (or adults for that matter) is fun. I thought you were having fun just playing out platitudes, without any real content. Your post above: All sides believe they are right. (righteous) ...No shit Sherlock We need a ceasefire... No shit Sherlock The West is imperfect... No shit Sherlock. But who can stop it? Who started it? What can the West do? |
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Post by AvonCalling on Oct 10, 2024 15:33:52 GMT
At the very least they milked an opportunity. 40,000 dead! And even Israel only claims half of those were Hamas AND Israel uses a very wide definition of Hamas in that. A civil servant administrator in a Hams run territory is not a combatant. Anyone that thinks a 1 for 1 ratio of killing civilians for combatants is just fine is seriously evil minded, anyone implementing it should be locked up. And as stated, the ratio is likely much much worse. The thing is when you google this you find that the civilian to combatant ratio for urban warfare is 9 civilians to 1 Combatant. This seems to be a pretty widely accepted statistic. Now I do note that you say anyone who thinks one to one is fine is evil but I am saying that the reality appears to be a 9:1 ratio. |
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Oct 10, 2024 15:42:51 GMT
That's because so much urban warfare is prosecuted illegally.
Anyone using unguided Mk 84s in dense occupied urban territory is breaking the Geneva Conventions
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Post by Zany on Oct 10, 2024 20:25:36 GMT
And even Israel only claims half of those were Hamas AND Israel uses a very wide definition of Hamas in that. A civil servant administrator in a Hams run territory is not a combatant. Anyone that thinks a 1 for 1 ratio of killing civilians for combatants is just fine is seriously evil minded, anyone implementing it should be locked up. And as stated, the ratio is likely much much worse. The thing is when you google this you find that the civilian to combatant ratio for urban warfare is 9 civilians to 1 Combatant. This seems to be a pretty widely accepted statistic. Now I do note that you say anyone who thinks one to one is fine is evil but I am saying that the reality appears to be a 9:1 ratio. Which is presumably why urban warfare has to be so carefully carried out. Not something you can do with missiles and jets hitting schools and hospitals. |
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Post by Orac on Oct 11, 2024 9:35:03 GMT
Does anyone know what's the value ratio of Jews to Palestinians In a war situation, each antagonist can be assumed to value its own citizens far more highly than its enemy's citizens Are you really expecting a nation in a war situation to be trying to balance the death figures out with the enemy? |
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Oct 11, 2024 10:34:06 GMT
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Post by Orac on Oct 11, 2024 11:34:19 GMT
No but the law is they should take great care to avoid civilian deaths and Israel clearly only takes minimal care. That's a fine opinion. You would of course have to balance care with the pragmatic needs of conducting the war at all. If you took total care you would remain motionless while hamas lined up more bonfires for the jews |
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Oct 11, 2024 13:15:07 GMT
No but the law is they should take great care to avoid civilian deaths and Israel clearly only takes minimal care. That's a fine opinion. You would of course have to balance care with the pragmatic needs of conducting the war at all. If you took total care you would remain motionless while hamas lined up more bonfires for the jews And no one here is asking for that. Just end the 'well we had to use a really big bomb because we're not sure where the target was and anyway only Arab civilians died' method of Israel. It's counter productive and it's illegal link
'a general prohibition of attacks against civilians and other protected persons and objects (I). This prohibition covers direct and intentional attacks against on civilians (1), as well as the prohibition of indiscriminate or disproportionate attacks because of their incidental effect on civilians and other protected persons and objects (2). The protection of IHL against attack may be weakened or lost when civilians participate directly in hostilities or when civilians’ objects are used or misused to commit acts harmful to the enemy. However, this is not sufficient to make their attack a lawful one. Compliance with the IHL rules of precaution and proportionality remains imperative (II). IHL does not provide a pre-defined table for calculating the proportionality of an attack. It is therefore the duty of commanders to ensure that the IHL obligations of distinction, precaution and proportionality are respected in the targeting process and, if not, to abort the attack.' So ordering forces to attack with 'no restraint' and subsequent mass killing of civilians was intentional breaking of international law. |
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