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Post by Amadan on Aug 25, 2024 17:51:47 GMT
I believe there is no DNA evidence for a mass influx of new peoples. Are you implying the peoples of the uk are different from the rest of northern and Western Europe in terms of dna evidence? |
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Post by Amadan on Aug 25, 2024 18:02:11 GMT
More likely that small numbers of people arrived with their superior technology which spread quickly along with the new language and culture. This was similar to what was later said about the anglo saxons , except no one could explain with any credibility why old English had practically no Celtic words in its vocabulary , which showed the scantiness of social relations between saxons and Celts centuries after the fall of the roman world. language can change in many ways , cultures can improve , but as far as im aware , no incoming language in the world has ever been less intermingled with the host nation as what happened with old English and old welsh in what is today called the nation of england. This gave evidence to the accounts of people living at those days like gildas of the saxons being brutal barbarians who were attempting to wipe the British race out and replace them. when the Danes and later normans invaded what is now england , their languages intermingled with the English language , unlike the old English language with welsh , so go figure. as I said , I think its a fantasy continually projected of an isolated , or largely isolated island race , taking in small groups of incoming migrants over time. Except as I said to zany , at not one point in history has there ever been an homogenous British race , or British language. You would think that the whole island would have historical and archaleogical evidence for this mythical homogenous island race , but that simply isnt the case . Its easy to retreat at the failure of evidence into the shady world of dna and genetics , which dont really show what people often claim. The modern British and irish are simply the descendants of thousands of years of European invaders each with their own languages and cultures , who remained separate in many ways , or mixed to form separate kingdoms and nations , which still exist today. |
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Post by montegriffo on Aug 25, 2024 18:03:29 GMT
I believe there is no DNA evidence for a mass influx of new peoples. Are you implying the peoples of the uk are different from the rest of northern and Western Europe in terms of dna evidence? No, I'm suggesting there was no mass immigration of Beaker People or Celts who overwhelmed the native Neolithic people. |
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Post by Amadan on Aug 25, 2024 18:09:22 GMT
Are you implying the peoples of the uk are different from the rest of northern and Western Europe in terms of dna evidence? No, I'm suggesting there was no mass immigration of Beaker People or Celts who overwhelmed the native Neolithic people. so how does dna and genetics show this mass invasion(or lack of one) if we are saying we are all genetically similar to northern and western people of Europe? Every single language ever spoken in what is now the islands of Britain and ireland originated on the continent. every single one. even the neolithic people you talk about had ties with the mediterannean all the way back to what is now turkey. so somehow somewhere a large group of humans at one point in history must have mass migrated and produced the first people , and im not aware of any evidence so far that suggests the population remained the same forever more. As I said , its nothing but myth making for the modern uk , up there along with all the other invented myths , most of which come from the victorian era , and aren't ancient in tradition. The oldest recognisable culture in the islands is Celtic. That leaves roughly a preceding 7000 years after the last ice age or so where we know little to nothing about humanity that lived here , but dna can tell us we are an island race. I find it fanciful indeed monte. |
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Post by montegriffo on Aug 25, 2024 18:25:19 GMT
More likely that small numbers of people arrived with their superior technology which spread quickly along with the new language and culture. This was similar to what was later said about the anglo saxons , except no one could explain with any credibility why old English had practically no Celtic words in its vocabulary , which showed the scantiness of social relations between saxons and Celts centuries after the fall of the roman world. language can change in many ways , cultures can improve , but as far as im aware , no incoming language in the world has ever been less intermingled with the host nation as what happened with old English and old welsh in what is today called the nation of england. This gave evidence to the accounts of people living at those days like gildas of the saxons being brutal barbarians who were attempting to wipe the British race out and replace them. when the Danes and later normans invaded what is now england , their languages intermingled with the English language , unlike the old English language with welsh , so go figure. as I said , I think its a fantasy continually projected of an isolated , or largely isolated island race , taking in small groups of incoming migrants over time. Except as I said to zany , at not one point in history has there ever been an homogenous British race , or British language. You would think that the whole island would have historical and archaleogical evidence for this mythical homogenous island race , but that simply isnt the case . Its easy to retreat at the failure of evidence into the shady world of dna and genetics , which dont really show what people often claim. The modern British and irish are simply the descendants of thousands of years of European invaders each with their own languages and cultures , who remained separate in many ways , or mixed to form separate kingdoms and nations , which still exist today. I'm not really interested in British Nationalism or for that matter Scottish Nationalism. I'm more interested in the ancient history of the Isles. Bearing in mind we have only been an island for about 8,000 years or so. At around the time agriculture from the fertile crescent arrived in the far west of Europe, Doggerland was lost to rising sea levels due to the end of the last ice age. Neolithic stone circles and henges are common all over western Europe so we can probably assume we all came from a single culture (with regional differences) at one point in time. Whether there was a common language 8,000 years ago we'll probably never know but there was a universal monolith building 'culture' going back at least 5.000 years. The oldest of which seem to have originated in the Shetlands. The Ring of Brodgar being the grandfather of all the British stone circles. So not only is the altar stone of Stonehenge Scottish, it's quite possible that stone circles themselves are Scottish and yet another thing the English have copied and improved. |
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Post by montegriffo on Aug 25, 2024 18:33:53 GMT
No, I'm suggesting there was no mass immigration of Beaker People or Celts who overwhelmed the native Neolithic people. so how does dna and genetics show this mass invasion(or lack of one) if we are saying we are all genetically similar to northern and western people of Europe? Every single language ever spoken in what is now the islands of Britain and ireland originated on the continent. every single one. even the neolithic people you talk about had ties with the mediterannean all the way back to what is now turkey. so somehow somewhere a large group of humans at one point in history must have mass migrated and produced the first people , and im not aware of any evidence so far that suggests the population remained the same forever more. As I said , its nothing but myth making for the modern uk , up there along with all the other invented myths , most of which come from the victorian era , and aren't ancient in tradition. The oldest recognisable culture in the islands is Celtic. That leaves roughly a preceding 7000 years after the last ice age or so where we know little to nothing about humanity that lived here , but dna can tell us we are an island race. I find it fanciful indeed monte. I think you misunderstand what I'm saying. I'm not saying we are an island race separate from Europe. I'm saying that the arrival of the Beaker People was the arrival of a small group of people in Europe who brought revolutionary new technologies . It wasn't a mass influx of people that changed the DNA of Europe but an invasion of new ideas which quickly overran the old Neolithic culture. |
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Post by Amadan on Aug 25, 2024 18:41:18 GMT
This was similar to what was later said about the anglo saxons , except no one could explain with any credibility why old English had practically no Celtic words in its vocabulary , which showed the scantiness of social relations between saxons and Celts centuries after the fall of the roman world. language can change in many ways , cultures can improve , but as far as im aware , no incoming language in the world has ever been less intermingled with the host nation as what happened with old English and old welsh in what is today called the nation of england. This gave evidence to the accounts of people living at those days like gildas of the saxons being brutal barbarians who were attempting to wipe the British race out and replace them. when the Danes and later normans invaded what is now england , their languages intermingled with the English language , unlike the old English language with welsh , so go figure. as I said , I think its a fantasy continually projected of an isolated , or largely isolated island race , taking in small groups of incoming migrants over time. Except as I said to zany , at not one point in history has there ever been an homogenous British race , or British language. You would think that the whole island would have historical and archaleogical evidence for this mythical homogenous island race , but that simply isnt the case . Its easy to retreat at the failure of evidence into the shady world of dna and genetics , which dont really show what people often claim. The modern British and irish are simply the descendants of thousands of years of European invaders each with their own languages and cultures , who remained separate in many ways , or mixed to form separate kingdoms and nations , which still exist today. I'm not really interested in British Nationalism or for that matter Scottish Nationalism. I'm more interested in the ancient history of the Isles. Bearing in mind we have only been an island for about 8,000 years or so. At around the time agriculture from the fertile crescent arrived in the far west of Europe, Doggerland was lost to rising sea levels due to the end of the last ice age. Neolithic stone circles and henges are common all over western Europe so we can probably assume we all came from a single culture (with regional differences) at one point in time. Whether there was a common language 8,000 years ago we'll probably never know but there was a universal monolith building 'culture' going back at least 5.000 years. The oldest of which seem to have originated in the Shetlands. The Ring of Brodgar being the grandfather of all the British stone circles. So not only is the altar stone of Stonehenge Scottish, it's quite possible that stone circles themselves are Scottish and yet another thing the English have copied and improved. this isnt about nationalism , but I fear its being muddied by the inference of a British island race as ive said numerous times. Genetic studies dont show a homogenous island race . They show differences between people of the north west , and south east , reflecting the centuries of invasions and immigration , which fits exactly with historical research , archaeology myth. and legend. .....and the roman name Britain is about 2000 years old , and the uk three hundred years old , it makes you wonder why this so called genetic island race didnt have a common name for their own island passed down through the millennia if the new comers made such little impact on the homogenous islanders ? are you implying the loss of Doggerland cut the homogenous islanders off from Europe? im not buying that im afraid monte. You are looking at the ancient world through a modern lens , and failing to understand the seas were the highways of the old world. It was easier and made more sense to sail than walk . ive said that back up the thread, we originate from the mythical indo European tribes , which backs up also my point about us being descended from europeans rather than a separate island race. what makes you think the neolithic people though thought in terms of island communities or countries ? could the neolithic people who built stonehenge thought of themselves as European? is that like saying the English only robbed the bank of scotland as they wanted to borrow the Scottish banknotes. ? fucking copied. Thats a cracker. They do say though imitation is the highest form of flattery............ |
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Post by Amadan on Aug 25, 2024 18:46:03 GMT
so how does dna and genetics show this mass invasion(or lack of one) if we are saying we are all genetically similar to northern and western people of Europe? Every single language ever spoken in what is now the islands of Britain and ireland originated on the continent. every single one. even the neolithic people you talk about had ties with the mediterannean all the way back to what is now turkey. so somehow somewhere a large group of humans at one point in history must have mass migrated and produced the first people , and im not aware of any evidence so far that suggests the population remained the same forever more. As I said , its nothing but myth making for the modern uk , up there along with all the other invented myths , most of which come from the victorian era , and aren't ancient in tradition. The oldest recognisable culture in the islands is Celtic. That leaves roughly a preceding 7000 years after the last ice age or so where we know little to nothing about humanity that lived here , but dna can tell us we are an island race. I find it fanciful indeed monte. . It wasn't a mass influx of people that changed the DNA of Europe but an invasion of new ideas which quickly overran the old Neolithic culture. I take it you mean Britain instead of Europe? I disagree. Genetics show differences in these islands. Some invaders in history such as the vikings , or saxons came to settle. Other invaders such as the romans or normans simply came here with their armed forces , and replaced the local nobility. im not sure you can argue that each new wave of migrants or invasions simply brought new ideas but no people. It depended on the circumstances at the time , and certainly , there is ample evidence in history or large scale population replacement at various stages. |
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Post by montegriffo on Aug 25, 2024 18:48:07 GMT
I'm not really interested in British Nationalism or for that matter Scottish Nationalism. I'm more interested in the ancient history of the Isles. Bearing in mind we have only been an island for about 8,000 years or so. At around the time agriculture from the fertile crescent arrived in the far west of Europe, Doggerland was lost to rising sea levels due to the end of the last ice age. Neolithic stone circles and henges are common all over western Europe so we can probably assume we all came from a single culture (with regional differences) at one point in time. Whether there was a common language 8,000 years ago we'll probably never know but there was a universal monolith building 'culture' going back at least 5.000 years. The oldest of which seem to have originated in the Shetlands. The Ring of Brodgar being the grandfather of all the British stone circles. So not only is the altar stone of Stonehenge Scottish, it's quite possible that stone circles themselves are Scottish and yet another thing the English have copied and improved. this isnt about nationalism , but I fear its being muddied by the inference of a British island race as ive said numerous times. Genetic studies dont show a homogenous island race . They show differences between people of the north west , and south east , reflecting the centuries of invasions and immigration , which fits exactly with historical research , archaeology myth. and legend. .....and the roman name Britain is about 2000 years old , and the uk there hundred years old , it makes you wonder why this so called genetic island race didnt have a common name for their own island passed down through the millennia if the new comers made such little impact on the homogenous islanders ? are you implying the loss of Doggerland cut the homogenous islanders off from Europe? im not buying that im afraid monte. You are looking at the ancient world through a modern lens , and failing to understand the seas were the highways of the old world. It was easier and made more sense to sail than walk . ive said that back up the thread, we originate from the mythical indo European tribes , which backs up also my point about us being descended from europeans rather than a separate island race. what makes you think the neolithic people though thought in terms of island communities or countries ? could the neolithic people who built stonehenge thought of themselves as European? is that like saying the English only robbed the bank of scotland as they wanted to borrow the Scottish banknotes. ? fucking copied. Thats a cracker. That last comment was meant to be a joke. Clearly there were no such places as Scotland or England 5,000 years ago when the Ring of Brodgar was erected. |
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Post by Amadan on Aug 25, 2024 18:49:43 GMT
this isnt about nationalism , but I fear its being muddied by the inference of a British island race as ive said numerous times. Genetic studies dont show a homogenous island race . They show differences between people of the north west , and south east , reflecting the centuries of invasions and immigration , which fits exactly with historical research , archaeology myth. and legend. .....and the roman name Britain is about 2000 years old , and the uk there hundred years old , it makes you wonder why this so called genetic island race didnt have a common name for their own island passed down through the millennia if the new comers made such little impact on the homogenous islanders ? are you implying the loss of Doggerland cut the homogenous islanders off from Europe? im not buying that im afraid monte. You are looking at the ancient world through a modern lens , and failing to understand the seas were the highways of the old world. It was easier and made more sense to sail than walk . ive said that back up the thread, we originate from the mythical indo European tribes , which backs up also my point about us being descended from europeans rather than a separate island race. what makes you think the neolithic people though thought in terms of island communities or countries ? could the neolithic people who built stonehenge thought of themselves as European? is that like saying the English only robbed the bank of scotland as they wanted to borrow the Scottish banknotes. ? fucking copied. Thats a cracker. That last comment was meant to be a joke. Clearly there were no such places as Scotland or England 5,000 years ago when the Ring of Brodgar was erected. monte I know it was a joke. or more importantly Neither was there such a thing as Britain................. |
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Post by montegriffo on Aug 25, 2024 18:56:40 GMT
. It wasn't a mass influx of people that changed the DNA of Europe but an invasion of new ideas which quickly overran the old Neolithic culture. I take it you mean Britain instead of Europe? I disagree. Genetics show differences in these islands. Some invaders in history such as the vikings , or saxons came to settle. Other invaders such as the romans or normans simply came here with their armed forces , and replaced the local nobility. im not sure you can argue that each new wave of migrants or invasions simply brought new ideas but no people. It depended on the circumstances at the time , and certainly , there is ample evidence in history or large scale population replacement at various stages. No, I meant Europe. I think it's wrong to think of the influx of Beaker culture being the result of an invasion like the later invasions of Romans, Vikings and Normans into Britain. I don't think Europe was forced to accept the new Bronze Age technologies and ideas by mass waves of Beaker People. I think it was more a case of new ideas spreading here from the Steppes without much opposition. There may have been a few proto Gammons resisting the end of the Stone Age and rejecting the new-fangled, foreign bronze tools but mostly they would have been gratefully accepted as clearly superior. |
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Post by montegriffo on Aug 25, 2024 18:59:23 GMT
That last comment was meant to be a joke. Clearly there were no such places as Scotland or England 5,000 years ago when the Ring of Brodgar was erected. monte I know it was a joke. or more importantly Neither was there such a thing as Britain................. ...but the British Isles did exist geologically. They just weren't called that yet. |
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Post by Amadan on Aug 25, 2024 19:13:09 GMT
monte I know it was a joke. or more importantly Neither was there such a thing as Britain................. ...but the British Isles did exist geologically. They just weren't called that yet. ...the same though could be said for scotland and england. The point being , once again , where is the evidence for this mysterious island race that appears to be a figment of the imagination ? How do we know the neolithic peoples didnt see these islands as part of Europe , rather than the modern view of being apart ? Every single peoples we know to have lived here were linked culturally and genetically with Europe. Scots and irish with Iberia. The Welsh linked to the Gauls of armorica. The romans were based in Italy , the saxons with northern Germany , the vikings Scandinavia , the normans France , the ancient beaker peoples and neolithic peoples once again European. The oldest name for this island is Alba. That is what no more than four thousand years old max? these islands geologically existed after Doggerland sank , but you know absolutely next to nothing about the people who lived here , how long they had lived here , where they came from , how they saw themselves , their language and culture. Nothing. could they have been an extension of the people who were living in the north Western European continental mainalnd ? could this lands have been part of a wider kingdom , or nation or collection of tribes who saw themselves as common europeans of the day? |
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Post by Amadan on Aug 25, 2024 19:15:28 GMT
I take it you mean Britain instead of Europe? I disagree. Genetics show differences in these islands. Some invaders in history such as the vikings , or saxons came to settle. Other invaders such as the romans or normans simply came here with their armed forces , and replaced the local nobility. im not sure you can argue that each new wave of migrants or invasions simply brought new ideas but no people. It depended on the circumstances at the time , and certainly , there is ample evidence in history or large scale population replacement at various stages. No, I meant Europe. I think it's wrong to think of the influx of Beaker culture being the result of an invasion like the later invasions of Romans, Vikings and Normans into Britain. why? |
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Post by Amadan on Aug 25, 2024 19:20:32 GMT
I take it you mean Britain instead of Europe? I disagree. Genetics show differences in these islands. Some invaders in history such as the vikings , or saxons came to settle. Other invaders such as the romans or normans simply came here with their armed forces , and replaced the local nobility. im not sure you can argue that each new wave of migrants or invasions simply brought new ideas but no people. It depended on the circumstances at the time , and certainly , there is ample evidence in history or large scale population replacement at various stages. I think it's wrong to think of the influx of Beaker culture being the result of an invasion like the later invasions of Romans, Vikings and Normans into Britain.
However, a new population came to Britain in the form of the Beaker People who arrived around 4,500 years ago. The Beaker people are particularly easy to trace because they buried their dead with a specific type of pot or beaker. A large project studied the DNA of approximately 200 Beaker skeletons, concluding that these people originated in central Europe (Olalde et al. 2018). This data is supported archaeologically by the spread of the distinctive beaker burials. The DNA analysis also revealed that Beaker People had a range of skin and eye colours that wouldn’t be uncommon in Britain today. They thrived in western Europe, almost completely replacing the h. sapiens living there previously, and many modern British people are directly related to them.
So, if we total it up, that’s four different types of hominin – antecessor, heidlbergensis, neanderthalensis, sapiens – across around 850,000 years, travelling over land bridges, chalk ridges, and rivers. Following warming climates and resources or retreating from cooling climates. Human presence and absence controlled by geography, geology, sea level, and a climate that was ultimately influenced by the turning of the earth’s axis. The people most related to modern Britons arrived as migrants from Central Europe 4,500 years ago
blogs.ucl.ac.uk/researchers-in-museums/2019/02/24/migration-event-when-did-the-first-humans-arrive-in-britain/
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