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Post by AvonCalling on Aug 8, 2024 16:39:48 GMT
Of course I can. With respect, its the difference between the actual facts and your perception. As I outlined above, there are two main forms of work visa 1) Skilled Worker - The "ronseal" visa 2) Health and Care worker - www.gov.uk/browse/visas-immigration/work-visas
The above link was useful. It strengthens your case but there is a lot hidden under the hood. For 2023 a lot of work visas were for Health Care and whilst I don't consider them unskilled one of the requirements was must be paid minimum wage IIRC. If people are coming in on minimum wage and bringing family to that's a net cost before you factor in their use of public services.
A lot of the immigration figure also appears to be study. If they come and then leave the only issue then is their use of public services. I'd expect this to be low given most people stidying you would expect to be young and fit...ish.
That said I saw Braverman basically making out that a lot of this studying was just a con to get into the country and then stay...but that is Braverman so I take that with a hefty pinch of salt...likely hood is that some of it goes on but no one really knows how much but as Steve said...it smacks of taking the piss
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borgr0
Observer
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Post by borgr0 on Aug 8, 2024 19:07:32 GMT
While I enjoy the pushback, I do fear this has all the hallmarks of the Brexit issue again. Mostly middle class people leading the push back using logic and facts but meanwhile under the radar the likes of Farage indoctrinating working class people with a tissue of lies blaming immigrants for all ills working class people face and blaming the middle class elite for lying to them until one day we wake up too late and find the lies are now believed by a majority and we shoot ourselves in the foot again but as I said that happens because those in power will not address the issue and you said that is because it would be electoral suicide so what's to be done Not only that, but at times I saw videos of peaceful protesters kettled and mass arrested - then let go with no charge, this guy demonstrates this perfectly (no pun intended) He seems sympathetic to the protests here, but if you see the next video he realises far-right hooligans have tried to hijack it - just as left-wing counter protesters are more interested in counter protesting than protesting for something real to be done [about all the problems people are facing in the UK]. He realises the futility of these protests, I realised that in 2009 during the G20 as a lefty. I read something by Monbiot that said the rioters were stirred up by years of lies and hate, which is true, also monied interests. It's also true that migration isn't being dealt with and police being so underfunded probably contributed to what happened. I don't believe everyone at the protests was a Tommy Robinson fan, some were just angry at what happened and wanted to express that peacefully, others were part of the rent-a-mob and looked for a fight I definitely don't believe in the police state nor do I think violent rioters should be mollycoddled or allowed to get away with it, but like you said people feel like they have no outlet, convicted coke dealing fraudster Tommy Robinson definitely isn't going to help anything Why do the police respond to protests that have yet to get violent with kettling/cordoning and mass arresting people? And I can speak with authority on this - as they did that at left wing protests I was a part of as far back as 2009, it's not on It's not two tier policing, it's multi tiered where the rich get away with all their crap and soup throwing protesters are locked up for over a decade - and peaceful protesters are conflated with violent rioters at protests like this. And I am not anti police before anyone suggests otherwise, they have mostly been very good to me
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Post by dappy on Aug 8, 2024 19:08:45 GMT
Yes we have been talking for a couple of pages now about the crisis in social care which forced the introduction of a new visa. I asked you a couple of times how you proposed to deal with the crisis if not through bringing workers in from abroad.
You seem to have abandoned your “unskilled workers” approach to reducing immigration and now seem to be trying student visas. Really you want to cut those? Young educated people attending licensed establishments paying high fees subsidising our kids, paying significant visa fees and healthcare surcharge and spending more money on the economy bringing in tax revenue. You want to reduce this?? Why?
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Post by Zany on Aug 8, 2024 19:19:10 GMT
I'm afraid you are arguing with reality rather than me because this is a well known feature of our system.and is easily demonstrated with simple game theory - ie there never is a viable second choice. I think someone else attempted to explain this to you. In my opinion there is little point wasting energy trying explain something to someone who is clearly deliberately failing to understand.something very simple. I ask again: at which election are you saying it was promised by the winning party that immigration would be reduced by an order of magnitude? This do you Steve. www.ein.org.uk/news/conservative-manifesto-pledges-new-cap-reduce-record-net-migration-levels-and-promises-regularThe manifesto pledges to reduce net migration by introducing a binding, legal cap, which will be set on the number of work and family visas issued. The cap will fall every year and the Conservatives say it will not be able to be breached. Parliament will hold an annual vote to decide the level of the cap.
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Post by Zany on Aug 8, 2024 19:22:11 GMT
dappy Is this where the middle class are going wrong? If they're armed with facts and logic and Farage only has a tissue of lies, they should be winning the argument ..... Farage's lies can be unravelled and exposed, whereas the logic and facts which the Middle Class have at their disposal will withstand any scrutiny. Are they not delivering their information under the radar perhaps ? With the cards and the mainstream media stacked in their favour, maybe the Middle class need to come out of their coffee shops and work harder at disseminating those facts and logic to their home helps, nannies, dustmen etc. So many people hear what they want to hear.
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Steve
Hero Protagonist
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Post by Steve on Aug 8, 2024 20:50:05 GMT
Immigration and asylum are too very different things Steve. Lets not get them confused and in this thread concentrate on the much larger number - conventional immigration. Actually net immigration is likely to fall naturally this year or next as the post Covid spike in net educational immigration falls away and the mergency social care spike caused by the previous government's focus on headlines not practical solutions mitigates. Could I ask you the question asked to Avon. He has struggled a bit to be honest. What specifically you would do to reduce it and what you think the advantages and disadvantages would be. You don’t have to give me every measure. Just the best example. Why do you think I was confusing immigration with these faux asylum seekers. The former is undermining the employment and wage prospects for people already here as well as overloading finite resources and that is causing tension and grudges. The latter is undermining confidence in the law. To your question On immigration first we have to get our stats much clearer, just saying the net legal movements in = immigration is ridiculous. We need to be clear on who actually has right to reside and right to citizenship. Counting these temporary stay foreign students as immigrants just creates headline creating misleading figures. Second we need to be clear, there is no quick fix all the time we can't get enough Brits to do the needed work BUT third apply a progressive escalator on the salaries needed to secure work permits and eventual citizenship On irregular asylum seekers I keep saying send them offshore (South Georgia) but not to an obviously not applicable country (Rwanda)
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Steve
Hero Protagonist
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Post by Steve on Aug 8, 2024 20:51:48 GMT
The full force of the law needs to be vested on this evil git from the so called anti racists too www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz074vyvjzvo'Suspended Labour councillor Ricky Jones has been arrested on suspicion of encouraging murder after comments at a London counter-protest. Videos had emerged online reportedly showing Mr Jones telling a crowd in Walthamstow that far right demonstrators needed to have their throats cut.'
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Post by dappy on Aug 8, 2024 21:12:23 GMT
This thread is about overall immigration Steve. Asylum is a tiny percentage of that and a very different issue. I suggest we talk about asylum in a different thread.
I probably agree re students.
Not sure I understand re 3). Could you explain.
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Steve
Hero Protagonist
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Post by Steve on Aug 8, 2024 21:15:11 GMT
You don't think that boat people claiming asylum has been a factor in the motivations of these thugs? Really?
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Post by Zany on Aug 8, 2024 21:45:58 GMT
You don't think that boat people claiming asylum has been a factor in the motivations of these thugs? Really? Sadly yes, they are that stupid. But that doesn't mean we have to be as well.
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Steve
Hero Protagonist
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Post by Steve on Aug 8, 2024 22:05:17 GMT
If you want to ignore a provoking factor then fine but please don't expect us all to. When people see others getting away with benefiting from illegal acts then it creates an expectation that they should be too.
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Post by Zany on Aug 8, 2024 22:07:55 GMT
If you want to ignore a provoking factor then fine but please don't expect us all to. When people see others getting away with benefiting from illegal acts then it creates an expectation that they should be too. A strange conclusion to reach from my words
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Steve
Hero Protagonist
Posts: 2,607
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Post by Steve on Aug 8, 2024 22:09:23 GMT
So you say you weren't endorsing Dappy's suggestion we don't discuss asylum seekers in this thread?
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Post by Zany on Aug 9, 2024 7:02:10 GMT
So you say you weren't endorsing Dappy's suggestion we don't discuss asylum seekers in this thread? No I wasn't. I was suggesting there might be enough intelligence here to continually discern between the relatively small number of asylum seekers and the large amount of immigrants. When the protest supporters talk of the public being against more immigration they are referring to legal immigrants, regardless of whatever the thugs smashing up shops and stealing might think.
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Post by Orac on Aug 9, 2024 8:25:54 GMT
Net migration down to the tens of thousands was in the 2010 Manifesto if that's any help. Thanks that does help But actually the promise wasn't that, it was to take steps to make it so and more importantly the Conservatives didn't win that election. The electorate did not back them. A coalition won and that promise was not in the coalition agreement. It's just plain wrong to pretend we were betrayed when we the electorate didn't back the manifesto. In the sense that they were prepared to ditch it as a compromise, they refused / failed to do it. The electorate backed them enough for them to form the senior part of a coalition government . So, to say the electorate did not back them is really a lie - they backed them sufficiently for them to form the senior part of a coalition. If, for instance, a lib dem policy you enjoyed had been enacted in that coalition , (say) imprisoning people for disagreeing with your political beliefs, you would not be here presently struggling to argue that the electorate didn't (at least to some degree) ask for this policy. I believe the lib dems have the same accusation of double cross regarding student loans. So far you are just engaging in absurd pedantry- ie picking on one tiny part of a broader claim to find (or argue) for a technical flaw that makes little odds to the broader claim. However, a naive (or normal) reader might get the impression that the broader claim is false, ie that the conservatives had not won an election with assurance they would reduce immigration and then refuse to do so - this is because a normal person is more interested in the broader claim than a pedantic technical argument about one tiny part of it and the naive reader would assume you were normal and therefore you shared their interest in the actual reality of the issue. Nothing, of course, could be further from the truth. I myself wouldn't spend energy trying to use a dubious technical argument to counter one small part of a broadly true claim because if the broader claim / pattern is true, such argumentation makes little odds to me - either your argument changes something or don't bother. However, this is the only thing you appear to engage in. I avoid political conversation with you (in a forum full of people i disagree with politically because I suspect you have mental problems that make such conversations with you moot.
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