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Post by Orac on Aug 5, 2024 7:56:59 GMT
It's not a neat trick, it's the reality, The conservative party fell apart because it dropped much of the core philosophical stance in order to make peace with the robot people who run the apparatus. This is why great swathes of the UK public, who actually hold those principles dear, are effectively disenfranchised and why turnout is so dismal. Obviously, if you don't effectively punish theft, then virtually no incentive can work. Tell your employees that they can't steal, but they are very unlikely to get caught, and, if they are, you are unlikely to take the matter further. Then try to get them to work harder. One problem is that, because we no longer have a functioning democracy, a lot of the apparatus that applies this is now outside any democratic control.- so, even if, an elected government wanted to apply reason, their power to do so is constrained. This is why we had the farce of a government elected on a historic mandate apparently stymied by unaccountable apparatchiks. The conservative leadership decided to throw it's lot in with the apparatchiks., which is why Andrew Brown posts every now and then to remind Conservatives how they their party must continue to ignore their membership. I do find your argument extremis very boring. I didn't say "unlikely to take the matter further" I said increasingly harsh punishment does not deter crime , I did not say NO punishment is the alternative. Tell your employees that if they steal they are very likely to get caught and lose heir jobs will stop more than saying "we probably wont catch you but if we do you'll do five years in prison." As for the Tories throwing their lot in with the apparatchiks (Communists) what utter tripe. The wealth gap has grown considerably under the Tories while public services have shrunk. I always find it amusing that the extremes on all sides claim they are the silent majority, but never seem to get the majority of votes. I can never decide if its a form of self delusion that makes them think their views are everyone's despite being constantly told otherwise, or if they seek out other deluded souls to build their hopes on. The only reason we keep clashing about the conservative party is that you(who should only have a distant interest in the details) keep insisting that Conservatives adopt your view of what Conservatism is or should be. It's called gas-lighting. I explained why length of sentence can be ineffective - ie when the system of law enforcement has more or less collapsed, which is where we are. . |
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Post by happyhornet3 on Aug 5, 2024 7:57:29 GMT
None of this has anything to do with those poor kids that were murdered by a British Christian in Southport. This is the culmination of the Conservative 'hostile environment' aimed at immigrants. Anyone inciting, carrying out violent attacks on our police should be jailed for a very long time. This includes Farage and his ilk on GBNews. Farrage and others spread fake news about the Southport killer right before all this kicked off. They should be among those getting a knock on the door from the police in the coming days, although of course they won't. Instead they'll carry on living their lives of comfort whilst the rioters they incited start prison sentences, lose their jobs, access to their kids etc. |
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Post by Zany on Aug 5, 2024 8:07:38 GMT
I do find your argument extremis very boring. I didn't say "unlikely to take the matter further" I said increasingly harsh punishment does not deter crime , I did not say NO punishment is the alternative. Tell your employees that if they steal they are very likely to get caught and lose heir jobs will stop more than saying "we probably wont catch you but if we do you'll do five years in prison." As for the Tories throwing their lot in with the apparatchiks (Communists) what utter tripe. The wealth gap has grown considerably under the Tories while public services have shrunk. I always find it amusing that the extremes on all sides claim they are the silent majority, but never seem to get the majority of votes. I can never decide if its a form of self delusion that makes them think their views are everyone's despite being constantly told otherwise, or if they seek out other deluded souls to build their hopes on. The only reason we keep clashing about the conservative party is that you(who should only have a distant interest in the details) keep insisting that Conservatives adopt your view of what Conservatism is or should be. It's called gas-lighting. I explained why length of sentence can be ineffective - ie when the system of law enforcement has more or less collapsed, which is where we are. . I base my view of the Conservative party on how they have been for the last 30 years. What period do you base your view of conservatism on. |
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Post by Orac on Aug 5, 2024 8:18:42 GMT
The only reason we keep clashing about the conservative party is that you(who should only have a distant interest in the details) keep insisting that Conservatives adopt your view of what Conservatism is or should be. It's called gas-lighting. I explained why length of sentence can be ineffective - ie when the system of law enforcement has more or less collapsed, which is where we are. . I base my view of the Conservative party on how they have been for the last 30 years. What period do you base your view of conservatism on. No you don't. You base it on what you see as the model 'centrist party' - ie what you feel all parties should be moving towards(the liberal democrat party), You have the classic left 'right side of history' concrete O(f course, getting what you want (all parties sharing your position) would act to effectively disenfranchise most of the country who substantially disagree with you. |
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Post by Zany on Aug 5, 2024 8:34:23 GMT
I base my view of the Conservative party on how they have been for the last 30 years. What period do you base your view of conservatism on. No you don't. You base it on what you see as the model 'centrist party' - ie what you feel all parties should be moving towards(the liberal democrat party), You have the classic left 'right side of history' concrete O(f course, getting what you want (all parties sharing your position) would act to effectively disenfranchise most of the country who substantially disagree with you. Instead of reading my mind for me and telling me what I think, why don't you tell me what most of the country want, as you seem to know. Or link me to these secret sites where the majority of the country discuss what they want. Otherwise I might just think its you giving your view as fact. |
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Post by AvonCalling on Aug 5, 2024 11:06:15 GMT
None of this has anything to do with those poor kids that were murdered by a British Christian in Southport. This is the culmination of the Conservative 'hostile environment' aimed at immigrants. Anyone inciting, carrying out violent attacks on our police should be jailed for a very long time. This includes Farage and his ilk on GBNews. Farrage and others spread fake news about the Southport killer right before all this kicked off. They should be among those getting a knock on the door from the police in the coming days, although of course they won't. Instead they'll carry on living their lives of comfort whilst the rioters they incited start prison sentences, lose their jobs, access to their kids etc. It's an interesting idea that fake news could constitute incitement. Have you seen an example of fake news by Farage that you consider as incitement? |
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Post by Orac on Aug 5, 2024 11:42:41 GMT
More of the same point - but in detail
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Aug 5, 2024 11:43:06 GMT
It's an interesting idea that fake news could constitute incitement. Have you seen an example of fake news by Farage that you consider as incitement? For a start how about that infamous poster deliberately misleadingly loaded with non white faces  |
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Aug 5, 2024 11:46:45 GMT
. . . I recall you went as far as to spend weeks trying to justify a convicted child abuser cornering a 17 year old in a car park and assaulting him. It's a pretty drastic double standard in your case Best you back up that supposed recall with evidence. . . So with no evidence despite twice being challenged on this, it's proven it was a malicious made up false story by Orac. What an appalling example to set. |
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Post by Orac on Aug 5, 2024 11:48:54 GMT
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Aug 5, 2024 11:51:46 GMT
Deleted as response to above
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Post by AvonCalling on Aug 5, 2024 12:30:56 GMT
It's an interesting idea that fake news could constitute incitement. Have you seen an example of fake news by Farage that you consider as incitement? For a start how about that infamous poster deliberately misleadingly loaded with non white faces Well we are back here. Normally I would let it go but as in other threads you appear to be determined to argue the pendantic toss your "deliberately misleading" seems to fit into your category of supposed fact as you didn't say in your opinion and you cannot prove what his intention was. |
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Aug 5, 2024 12:47:53 GMT
You asked for an example of him using fake news, you got given one and now apparently I'm a bad person for that
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Aug 5, 2024 12:52:41 GMT
Anyone see that now not a Labour MP Zarak Sultana on Good Morning Britain this morning?
With her inane ranting about racists here, racists there, racists everywhere; she inadvertently did more in 20 minutes to assist the position of these rioters than Yaxley-Lennon has ever done from his 5 star hotels
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Post by AvonCalling on Aug 5, 2024 12:54:02 GMT
You asked for an example of him using fake news, you got given one and now apparently I'm a bad person for that I am not saying you are a bad person...I edited that comment out 😁. I agree that it could be construed as fake news I was asking specifically about Fake news as incitement. I don't think that kind of stuff helps maintain a calm and civilised society but then neither does allowing hundreds of thousands of migrants in when you have told people you will reduce it to thousands. I think they are as bad as each other but one of them is at least more up front about it. |
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