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Post by Orac on Aug 4, 2024 10:03:55 GMT
The left ignores the concept of incentives. That's the key reason why left wing policy and social models tend to fail. I could go a bit further - the UK government / Labour party want crimes like theft and fraud to go relatively unpunished because these crimes help support many of of criminal syndicates in its client groups But it was the Right that decided that police budgets could be cut. The Right that decided petty theft only needed a crime number for their insurers. The Conservative party A party who abandoned much of the important distinction between them and the left some time ago. They through their lot in with the automatons - hence their recent near destruction. We don't have a party presently that represents the views that take proper accounts of the concept of incentives. This is part of the reality of large swathes public (who do believe in incentives) being effectively disenfranchised, |
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Post by AvonCalling on Aug 4, 2024 10:12:05 GMT
Have a niggling suspicion that I have read articles that say the length of a sentence does not act as a disincentive. Then, instead of believing everything you are told, you should instead attempt to apply some basic reasoning and your independent critical faculties to such claims. When i say the left don't believe in incentives, it is truer to say they can't believe in incentives and remain left It's a bit like it doesn't matter what you believe science is still right. Given what I read and the YouTube videos you link to maybe you should risk it and read the dictionary description of ironic |
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Post by Orac on Aug 4, 2024 10:12:20 GMT
Then, instead of believing everything you are told, you should instead attempt to apply some basic reasoning and your independent critical faculties to such claims. I disagree with you here Orac. There is a lot of evidence that long prison sentences do not reduce crime rates. Most criminals do not consider being caught when they get involved in crime. This is because they get away with it for such a long time before getting caught. The answer is to make getting caught more common, not to imprison those caught for longer, thus pushing them into the criminal fraternity, with little other choice. If there is virtually no chance of getting caught then , of course, the length of the sentence is going to be ineffective. The two factors combine (multiply) and if one is set to zero (or near zero) the value of the other makes no odds because the resulting factor is zero. A similar things happens with risk in likelihood vs consequences. If the likelihood is zero, it doesn't matter what the consequences are. Presently we are moving several hundred thousand homeless people into the UK every year. You do the maths |
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Post by Zany on Aug 4, 2024 10:12:50 GMT
But it was the Right that decided that police budgets could be cut. The Right that decided petty theft only needed a crime number for their insurers. The Conservative party A party who abandoned much of the important distinction between them and the left some time ago. They threw their lot in with the automatons - hence their recent near destruction. We don't have a party presently that represents the views that take proper accounts of the concept of incentives. This is part of the reality of large swathes public (who do believe in incentives) being effectively disenfranchised, Neat trick to call the Tories left wing when their policies turn out to suck. Policies of cutting benefits to "encourage" people to work, which turned out to encourage people to steal and a growing acceptance to that by the population around them watching the wealth gap grow. The idea that people are lazy and wont work if they aren't made to? Right wing enough for you? When reality is pretty much everyone wants more than basic existence and only give up when it becomes apparent that such things are clearly beyond reach. |
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Post by Zany on Aug 4, 2024 10:19:16 GMT
I disagree with you here Orac. There is a lot of evidence that long prison sentences do not reduce crime rates. Most criminals do not consider being caught when they get involved in crime. This is because they get away with it for such a long time before getting caught. The answer is to make getting caught more common, not to imprison those caught for longer, thus pushing them into the criminal fraternity, with little other choice. If there is virtually no chance of getting caught then , of course, the length of the sentence is going to be ineffective. The two factors combine (multiply) and if one is set to zero (or near zero) the value of the other makes no odds because the resulting factor is zero. A similar things happens with risk in likelihood vs consequences. If the likelihood is zero, it doesn't matter what the consequences are. Presently we are moving several hundred thousand homeless people into the UK every year. You do the maths You just repeating the words like they are an obvious truth does not make them so Orac. Its not maths its human nature. History is filled with examples of evermore severe sentences attempting to stop crime and failing. The saying may as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb comes from exactly that idea, when stealing a Rabbit becomes a hanging crime you might as well steal a flock of sheep. Again the Victorians tried it and it failed crime rose through the roof until they started helping the poor instead of vilifying them. |
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Aug 4, 2024 10:19:45 GMT
No you are desperately trying to divert people away from criticism of thuggery. Nobody i'm responding to is making any kind of consistent point on the matter.. violence is 'understandable' when it is pursuing something you want and 'unacceptable' when it is pursuing a cause you don't support I recall you went as far as to spend weeks trying to justify a convicted child abuser cornering a 17 year old in a car park and assaulting him. It's a pretty drastic double standard in your case Best you back up that supposed recall with evidence. Fact is we can all see you have tried to deflect exposure of the 'EDL' thugs for what they are. |
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Post by Orac on Aug 4, 2024 10:26:30 GMT
The Conservative party A party who abandoned much of the important distinction between them and the left some time ago. They threw their lot in with the automatons - hence their recent near destruction. We don't have a party presently that represents the views that take proper accounts of the concept of incentives. This is part of the reality of large swathes public (who do believe in incentives) being effectively disenfranchised, Neat trick to call the Tories left wing when their policies turn out to suck. It's not a neat trick, it's the reality, The conservative party fell apart because it dropped much of the core philosophical stance in order to make peace with the robot people who run the apparatus. This is why great swathes of the UK public, who actually hold those principles dear, are effectively disenfranchised and why turnout is so dismal. Obviously, if you don't effectively punish theft, then virtually no incentive can work. Tell your employees that they can't steal, but they are very unlikely to get caught, and, if they are, you are unlikely to take the matter further. Then try to get them to work harder. One problem is that, because we no longer have a functioning democracy, a lot of the apparatus that applies this is now outside any democratic control.- so, even if, an elected government wanted to apply reason, their power to do so is constrained. This is why we had the farce of a government elected on a historic mandate apparently stymied by unaccountable apparatchiks. The conservative leadership decided to throw it's lot in with the apparatchiks., which is why Andrew Brown posts every now and then to remind Conservatives how they their party must continue to ignore their membership. |
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Aug 4, 2024 11:09:56 GMT
Nobody i'm responding to is making any kind of consistent point on the matter.. violence is 'understandable' when it is pursuing something you want and 'unacceptable' when it is pursuing a cause you don't support I recall you went as far as to spend weeks trying to justify a convicted child abuser cornering a 17 year old in a car park and assaulting him. It's a pretty drastic double standard in your case Best you back up that supposed recall with evidence. . . And evidence came there not. What a surprise not |
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Post by Zany on Aug 4, 2024 13:11:35 GMT
Neat trick to call the Tories left wing when their policies turn out to suck. It's not a neat trick, it's the reality, The conservative party fell apart because it dropped much of the core philosophical stance in order to make peace with the robot people who run the apparatus. This is why great swathes of the UK public, who actually hold those principles dear, are effectively disenfranchised and why turnout is so dismal. Obviously, if you don't effectively punish theft, then virtually no incentive can work. Tell your employees that they can't steal, but they are very unlikely to get caught, and, if they are, you are unlikely to take the matter further. Then try to get them to work harder. One problem is that, because we no longer have a functioning democracy, a lot of the apparatus that applies this is now outside any democratic control.- so, even if, an elected government wanted to apply reason, their power to do so is constrained. This is why we had the farce of a government elected on a historic mandate apparently stymied by unaccountable apparatchiks. The conservative leadership decided to throw it's lot in with the apparatchiks., which is why Andrew Brown posts every now and then to remind Conservatives how they their party must continue to ignore their membership. I do find your argument extremis very boring. I didn't say "unlikely to take the matter further" I said increasingly harsh punishment does not deter crime , I did not say NO punishment is the alternative. Tell your employees that if they steal they are very likely to get caught and lose heir jobs will stop more than saying "we probably wont catch you but if we do you'll do five years in prison." As for the Tories throwing their lot in with the apparatchiks (Communists) what utter tripe. The wealth gap has grown considerably under the Tories while public services have shrunk. I always find it amusing that the extremes on all sides claim they are the silent majority, but never seem to get the majority of votes. I can never decide if its a form of self delusion that makes them think their views are everyone's despite being constantly told otherwise, or if they seek out other deluded souls to build their hopes on. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2024 13:16:18 GMT
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Post by aristaeus on Aug 4, 2024 14:14:04 GMT
Farage is a cunt. I hope I live long enough to see him die (of natural causes).
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Aug 4, 2024 14:21:42 GMT
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Post by happyhornet3 on Aug 4, 2024 14:39:42 GMT
The Conservative party A party who abandoned much of the important distinction between them and the left some time ago. They threw their lot in with the automatons - hence their recent near destruction. We don't have a party presently that represents the views that take proper accounts of the concept of incentives. This is part of the reality of large swathes public (who do believe in incentives) being effectively disenfranchised, Neat trick to call the Tories left wing when their policies turn out to suck. Policies of cutting benefits to "encourage" people to work, which turned out to encourage people to steal and a growing acceptance to that by the population around them watching the wealth gap grow. The idea that people are lazy and wont work if they aren't made to? Right wing enough for you? When reality is pretty much everyone wants more than basic existence and only give up when it becomes apparent that such things are clearly beyond reach. The irony of right wingers using the same argument communists have historically used when their politics demonstrably fail when put in to practice. |
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Post by AvonCalling on Aug 4, 2024 16:10:10 GMT
Neat trick to call the Tories left wing when their policies turn out to suck. Policies of cutting benefits to "encourage" people to work, which turned out to encourage people to steal and a growing acceptance to that by the population around them watching the wealth gap grow. The idea that people are lazy and wont work if they aren't made to? Right wing enough for you? When reality is pretty much everyone wants more than basic existence and only give up when it becomes apparent that such things are clearly beyond reach. The irony of right wingers using the same argument communists have historically used when their politics demonstrably fail when put in to practice. Could you clarify what you mean by policies demonstrably failing as I tend to think of the global financial meltdown down as the best time xample of the failure of right wing policies which is amusing as labour got the blame for that |
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Post by RedRum on Aug 5, 2024 6:22:54 GMT
None of this has anything to do with those poor kids that were murdered by a British Christian in Southport.
This is the culmination of the Conservative 'hostile environment' aimed at immigrants.
Anyone inciting, carrying out violent attacks on our police should be jailed for a very long time.
This includes Farage and his ilk on GBNews.
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