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Post by AvonCalling on May 8, 2024 15:52:25 GMT
Doesn't the money from tariffs go into the treasury?
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Post by Zany on May 8, 2024 16:53:18 GMT
Sorry Vinny, how does our government adding 10% to the cost of an orange protect the Spanish fruit growers? Competition reduction, tariffs make non EU oranges more expensive and less competitive. And tariffs on EU oranges?
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Post by Zany on May 8, 2024 16:58:27 GMT
Put the tariff high enough and you might start seeing English oranges. But more importantly, if we used tariffs well you might see British strawberries out selling Spanish ones. Of course you run the risk of a trade war. I'm not advocating trade wars, I'm advocating the opposite, I'm advocating for trade liberalism, with one caveat, only do FTAs with democracies. No trade with dictatorships, at all. Total embargo, unless democratic reform takes place and they cease to be a dictatorship, in which case they too can enjoy trade liberalism. So tariff free trade with Indonesia where the average wage is £640 a month? Or Turkey at £290 a month. Are you happy for us to compete with those wages, might mean a few cut backs
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Post by Zany on May 8, 2024 16:59:27 GMT
Doesn't the money from tariffs go into the treasury? Yes.
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Post by vinny on May 8, 2024 18:26:06 GMT
I'm not advocating trade wars, I'm advocating the opposite, I'm advocating for trade liberalism, with one caveat, only do FTAs with democracies. No trade with dictatorships, at all. Total embargo, unless democratic reform takes place and they cease to be a dictatorship, in which case they too can enjoy trade liberalism. So tariff free trade with Indonesia where the average wage is £640 a month? Or Turkey at £290 a month. Are you happy for us to compete with those wages, might mean a few cut backs www.hrw.org/asia/indonesiawww.hrw.org/europe/central-asia/turkeyNot without monumental reform and better wages in those countries. I wouldn't describe them as democracies, yet.
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Post by Zany on May 8, 2024 19:29:15 GMT
So tariff free trade with Indonesia where the average wage is £640 a month? Or Turkey at £290 a month. Are you happy for us to compete with those wages, might mean a few cut backs www.hrw.org/asia/indonesiawww.hrw.org/europe/central-asia/turkeyNot without monumental reform and better wages in those countries. I wouldn't describe them as democracies, yet. Its going to be difficult to work out which are democracies according to Vinny. I took it to mean ones with a voting system and an elected government. Could you give me your parameters.
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Post by vinny on May 9, 2024 8:10:29 GMT
We could start by having tariff elimination on produce we do not make or grow. Then as countries improve their wages and internal laws, offer trade talks to all countries which have free speech, human rights, universal suffrage, no state persecution of gays, no state persecution of opposition politicians or their parties, that sort of thing.
Because, Russia could be classed as having a voting system and an "elected" government, even though it isn't a democracy.
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Post by Zany on May 9, 2024 8:30:53 GMT
We could start by having tariff elimination on produce we do not make or grow. Then as countries improve their wages and internal laws, offer trade talks to all countries which have free speech, human rights, universal suffrage, no state persecution of gays, no state persecution of opposition politicians or their parties, that sort of thing. Because, Russia could be classed as having a voting system and an "elected" government, even though it isn't a democracy. You are still going to run into problems We tariff apples from X because we grow our own. They retaliate by tariffing Cars from us. Russia isn't a democracy, it would not pass any external examination and denies oversight. I think open scrutiny is probably the basis for determining democracy.
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Post by vinny on May 9, 2024 8:59:27 GMT
There should be no trade whatsoever with nations like Russia, unless they have a revolution and the dictatorships fall. As for countries which aren't dictatorships, we had tariff free trade with extremely poor nations in Eastern Europe when we were in the EU and it damaged our manufacturing industries.
There should be a joint emphasis on wage reform and tariff free trade with such nations. If they achieve near wage parity with us, it's far less of a problem.
Quite frankly I don't want to support modern slavery via outsourcing.
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Post by Zany on May 9, 2024 9:12:13 GMT
There should be no trade whatsoever with nations like Russia, unless they have a revolution and the dictatorships fall. As for countries which aren't dictatorships, we had tariff free trade with extremely poor nations in Eastern Europe when we were in the EU and it damaged our manufacturing industries. There should be a joint emphasis on wage reform and tariff free trade with such nations. If they achieve near wage parity with us, it's far less of a problem. Quite frankly I don't want to support modern slavery via outsourcing. We agree there on Russia Vinny. Yes. I always felt that countries we invited to join that had much lower standard of living should have had limited membership until they caught up. The idea was that by joining they would quickly catch up, but that was ofcourse at other members expense. One big problem the UK had was that many unskilled and semi skilled came here because they spoke English. That said the EU did recognise the issue and offered Cameron a moratorium on FoM. Which he forgot to tell us about. I quite like your idea of a wage difference Tariff. Where the tariff directly reflects the difference in manufacturing costs.
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Steve
Hero Protagonist
Posts: 2,556
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Post by Steve on May 9, 2024 9:25:38 GMT
We could start by having tariff elimination on produce we do not make or grow. Then as countries improve their wages and internal laws, offer trade talks to all countries which have free speech, human rights, universal suffrage, no state persecution of gays, no state persecution of opposition politicians or their parties, that sort of thing. Because, Russia could be classed as having a voting system and an "elected" government, even though it isn't a democracy. You are still going to run into problems We tariff apples from X because we grow our own. They retaliate by tariffing Cars from us. Russia isn't a democracy, it would not pass any external examination and denies oversight. I think open scrutiny is probably the basis for determining democracy. It's not (any longer) a member of the Council of Europe either so has explicitly rejected Human Rights rules. We should never trade freely with such.
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Post by vinny on May 9, 2024 11:56:37 GMT
There should be no trade whatsoever with nations like Russia, unless they have a revolution and the dictatorships fall. As for countries which aren't dictatorships, we had tariff free trade with extremely poor nations in Eastern Europe when we were in the EU and it damaged our manufacturing industries. There should be a joint emphasis on wage reform and tariff free trade with such nations. If they achieve near wage parity with us, it's far less of a problem. Quite frankly I don't want to support modern slavery via outsourcing. We agree there on Russia Vinny. Yes. I always felt that countries we invited to join that had much lower standard of living should have had limited membership until they caught up. The idea was that by joining they would quickly catch up, but that was ofcourse at other members expense. One big problem the UK had was that many unskilled and semi skilled came here because they spoke English. That said the EU did recognise the issue and offered Cameron a moratorium on FoM. Which he forgot to tell us about. I quite like your idea of a wage difference Tariff. Where the tariff directly reflects the difference in manufacturing costs. Thanks Zany.
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Post by AvonCalling on May 10, 2024 16:30:35 GMT
I think we need to be far less idealistic about our approach and far more pragmatic. We should do what is in our economic interests as this offers the best outcomes for the most people in our country rather than pushing our ideals onto others or foregoing trade due to our ideals. We are not in an economically good place and we need to lick our wounds and fix this as a priority IMO
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Post by Zany on May 10, 2024 16:33:47 GMT
I think we need to be far less idealistic about our approach and far more pragmatic. We should do what is in our economic interests as this offers the best outcomes for the most people in our country rather than pushing our ideals onto others or foregoing trade due to our ideals. We are not in an economically good place and we need to lick our wounds and fix this as a priority IMO Do you have a line you wouldn't cross?
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Steve
Hero Protagonist
Posts: 2,556
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Post by Steve on May 10, 2024 16:51:30 GMT
I think we need to be far less idealistic about our approach and far more pragmatic. We should do what is in our economic interests as this offers the best outcomes for the most people in our country rather than pushing our ideals onto others or foregoing trade due to our ideals. We are not in an economically good place and we need to lick our wounds and fix this as a priority IMO We are a G7 country, we are in the top decile of real countries for GDP per capita etc etc. Most of the world would love to have our economy as the numbers trying to get here by any means attests. There isn't the slightest excuse to abandon moral principles.
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