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Post by Orac on Jul 25, 2024 7:19:22 GMT
No one got poor underestimating the intelligence of the Conservative party membership I wouldn't say that. I would say that the Conservative Party Membership are out of touch with ordinary people though. Surely not that out of touch. It was only a few years ago the conservative 'membership' effectively stole a large section of labor's vote and got a landslide It is amusing to watch this being relentlessly hammered by people who still see them as a potential threat to their carefully balanced managerial/bureaucratic house of cards
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Steve
Hero Protagonist
Posts: 2,556
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Post by Steve on Jul 25, 2024 9:09:36 GMT
I wouldn't say that. I would say that the Conservative Party Membership are out of touch with ordinary people though. Surely not that out of touch. It was only a few years ago the conservative 'membership' effectively stole a large section of labor's vote and got a landslide It is amusing to watch this being relentlessly hammered by people who still see them as a potential threat to their carefully balanced managerial/bureaucratic house of cards Only because Labour also got wildly out of touch too The Conservative party membership shows time after time that it belives in low tax first, second and last and society will just have to cope with the consequences of not having enough money to fund health, education, pensions, welfare etc etc. Not what the public want, it's an unelectable platform. The Tory MPs know that.
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Post by andrewbrown on Jul 25, 2024 9:34:51 GMT
I wouldn't say that. I would say that the Conservative Party Membership are out of touch with ordinary people though. Surely not that out of touch. It was only a few years ago the conservative 'membership' effectively stole a large section of labor's vote and got a landslide It is amusing to watch this being relentlessly hammered by people who still see them as a potential threat to their carefully balanced managerial/bureaucratic house of cards The Conservative Membership is I believe around 100,000? Their voting in a GE is not going to decide an election and their votes are not being targeted.
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Post by Orac on Jul 25, 2024 9:42:46 GMT
Surely not that out of touch. It was only a few years ago the conservative 'membership' effectively stole a large section of labor's vote and got a landslide It is amusing to watch this being relentlessly hammered by people who still see them as a potential threat to their carefully balanced managerial/bureaucratic house of cards The Conservative Membership is I believe around 100,000? Their voting in a GE is not going to decide an election and their votes are not being targeted. It's not the numbers of members that are a threat, it's the notion of them having a control of the party that would allow the conservatives to engage mainstream issues. If the conservative party is just another labour party, then you feel safe because the majority of the electorate remain effectively disenfranchised and you can continue stamping on their head with impunity. Its the left wing 'single party reflex'
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Post by andrewbrown on Jul 25, 2024 10:21:09 GMT
The Conservative Membership is I believe around 100,000? Their voting in a GE is not going to decide an election and their votes are not being targeted. It's not the numbers of members that are a threat, it's the notion of them having a control of the party that would allow the conservatives to engage mainstream issues. If the conservative party is just another labour party, then you feel safe because the majority of the electorate remain effectively disenfranchised and you can continue stamping on their head with impunity. Its the left wing 'single party reflex' I don't think anyone wants the Conservatives to be another Labour Party and don't think I said that. I just said that the Conservative Membership are out of touch with the rest of society. I'm not claiming that people don't believe in right wing policies, but I am claiming that the Conservative Membership is not reflective of public opinion.
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Post by Orac on Jul 25, 2024 10:32:55 GMT
It's not the numbers of members that are a threat, it's the notion of them having a control of the party that would allow the conservatives to engage mainstream issues. If the conservative party is just another labour party, then you feel safe because the majority of the electorate remain effectively disenfranchised and you can continue stamping on their head with impunity. Its the left wing 'single party reflex' I don't think anyone wants the Conservatives to be another Labour Party and don't think I said that. I just said that the Conservative Membership are out of touch with the rest of society. I'm not claiming that people don't believe in right wing policies, but I am claiming that the Conservative Membership is not reflective of public opinion. Yes - you have a particular and carefully selected target, which is the policies the membership of the conservative party disagree with the leadership about. These are policies that are actually quite popular - ie gigantic reductions in immigration and attacking the unaccountable power-base of the civil serviceIf that gets out of the box and is made available to the public as a feasible option, your whole position is hosed. You need an (effectively) 'one party' situation to stay in power and you know it.
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Post by dappy on Jul 25, 2024 10:42:33 GMT
Problem for both big parties is that while party democracy sounds fine, reality is that given a very small percentage of the population join political parties and the ones who do tend to be at the extreme end of their parties, reality is that there is no reason to believe that the views of members will be in line with the views of the electorate leaning towards that party.
Labour found it with “momentum” and risked losing electability. Tories May go down a similar road. Probably why Farage has structured Reform in the way he has to eliminate “member” influence.
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Post by andrewbrown on Jul 25, 2024 10:44:23 GMT
I don't think anyone wants the Conservatives to be another Labour Party and don't think I said that. I just said that the Conservative Membership are out of touch with the rest of society. I'm not claiming that people don't believe in right wing policies, but I am claiming that the Conservative Membership is not reflective of public opinion. Yes - you have a particular and carefully selected target, which is the policies the membership of the conservative party disagree with the leadership about. These are policies that are actually quite popular - ie gigantic reductions in immigration and attacking the unaccountable power-base of the civil serviceIf that gets out of the box and is made available to the public as a feasible option, your whole position is hosed. You need an (effectively) 'one party' situation to stay in power and you know it. I honestly think you're attacking a position I'm not making.
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Post by Orac on Jul 25, 2024 12:42:34 GMT
Yes - you have a particular and carefully selected target, which is the policies the membership of the conservative party disagree with the leadership about. These are policies that are actually quite popular - ie gigantic reductions in immigration and attacking the unaccountable power-base of the civil serviceIf that gets out of the box and is made available to the public as a feasible option, your whole position is hosed. You need an (effectively) 'one party' situation to stay in power and you know it. I honestly think you're attacking a position I'm not making. Can you outline the position i'm ascribing to you that you nether hold, nor are gas-lighting by pretending to hold?
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Post by andrewbrown on Jul 25, 2024 17:47:47 GMT
I honestly think you're attacking a position I'm not making. Can you outline the position i'm ascribing to you that you nether hold, nor are gas-lighting by pretending to hold? To be honest all the major parties are advocating a reduction in immigration, this isn't something unique to the conservative party. I agree that there appears to be a disconnect between the membership and the parliamentary party - but that wasn't part of my comment. I'm also not arguing that right wing policies may not be popular, I didn't say that and didn't mean to either. I would be interested to know a breakdown of the Conservative Membership. My guess is that it would be elderly, white, male, well off people. Would I be wrong?
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Post by Zany on Jul 27, 2024 7:30:18 GMT
I don't think anyone wants the Conservatives to be another Labour Party and don't think I said that. I just said that the Conservative Membership are out of touch with the rest of society. I'm not claiming that people don't believe in right wing policies, but I am claiming that the Conservative Membership is not reflective of public opinion. Yes - you have a particular and carefully selected target, which is the policies the membership of the conservative party disagree with the leadership about. These are policies that are actually quite popular - ie gigantic reductions in immigration and attacking the unaccountable power-base of the civil serviceIf that gets out of the box and is made available to the public as a feasible option, your whole position is hosed. You need an (effectively) 'one party' situation to stay in power and you know it. Where I think the Tories failed was cowardice. They failed to cut immigration because they were scared to tell their supporters it would hurt for a bit. A tax take based on ever increasing numbers of workers with public services always playing catch up, is what they ended up with. I think a lot of middle class and working Tories would have accepted higher taxes for a while if it was matched by falling immigration, but they stopped listening to their main body of voters and only heeded their big funders.
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Steve
Hero Protagonist
Posts: 2,556
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Post by Steve on Jul 27, 2024 10:18:12 GMT
They became the classic vicars only preaching to the choir and lost both their moral compass and congregations.
Unless and until Labour screw up they are probably unelectable now for a generation. Good.
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Post by Orac on Jul 28, 2024 9:18:15 GMT
Can you outline the position i'm ascribing to you that you nether hold, nor are gas-lighting by pretending to hold? To be honest all the major parties are advocating a reduction in immigration, this isn't something unique to the conservative party. I agree that there appears to be a disconnect between the membership and the parliamentary party - but that wasn't part of my comment. I'm also not arguing that right wing policies may not be popular, I didn't say that and didn't mean to either. I would be interested to know a breakdown of the Conservative Membership. My guess is that it would be elderly, white, male, well off people. Would I be wrong? It wasn't explicitly in your position, but it was implicitly in the concept that allowing membership control would be a disadvantage. A disadvantage over what? The conservatives party having the sort of unpopular policies you support? Political party membership is rather a niche interest - i think having membership dominated elderly white people is a tad more representative than (say) a membership comprised of Muslim agitators, communists and perverts
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Post by Orac on Jul 28, 2024 9:22:04 GMT
Yes - you have a particular and carefully selected target, which is the policies the membership of the conservative party disagree with the leadership about. These are policies that are actually quite popular - ie gigantic reductions in immigration and attacking the unaccountable power-base of the civil serviceIf that gets out of the box and is made available to the public as a feasible option, your whole position is hosed. You need an (effectively) 'one party' situation to stay in power and you know it. Where I think the Tories failed was cowardice. They failed to cut immigration because they were scared to tell their supporters it would hurt for a bit. I think you will find a lot of sympathy with this view among the members of the Conservative party
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borgr0
Observer
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Posts: 1,188
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Post by borgr0 on Aug 21, 2024 18:32:20 GMT
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