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Post by AvonCalling on Jun 27, 2024 13:09:24 GMT
How do you think we can stop illegal immigration whilst in the ECHR? The anti ECHR rhetoric is a desperate excuse for the failure of a Brexit dog whistle promise.
How is the UK going to stop illegal immigration without being part of an international cooperative effort to tackle it at source...? I just suspected it was the old blame everyone else for our failure to do what we oromised
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Post by vinny on Jun 27, 2024 13:24:10 GMT
How do you think we can stop illegal immigration whilst in the ECHR? The anti ECHR rhetoric is a desperate excuse for the failure of a Brexit dog whistle promise.
How is the UK going to stop illegal immigration without being part of an international cooperative effort to tackle it at source...? Whoever said we couldn't be part of an international cooperative effort? We've left the EU that means independence from the Commission. That doesn't mean we can't cooperate with them, or anyone else.
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Post by patman post on Jun 27, 2024 14:03:25 GMT
The anti ECHR rhetoric is a desperate excuse for the failure of a Brexit dog whistle promise.
How is the UK going to stop illegal immigration without being part of an international cooperative effort to tackle it at source...? Whoever said we couldn't be part of an international cooperative effort? We've left the EU that means independence from the Commission. That doesn't mean we can't cooperate with them, or anyone else. During early 2024, the UK concluded an agreement between the UK's migration agencies and Frontex — the EU Border and Coast Guard Agency. It forms part of wider EU-UK cooperation to combat smuggling, human trafficking and facilitation of irregular immigration through exchange of intelligence, expertise and personnel. It seems the details are yet to be finalised.
It's had piecemeal agreements with France.
The UK also signed this April, an agreement with Vietnam to increase cooperation on tackling illegal migration and stop Vietnamese people risking their lives by crossing the English Channel.
So things are happening — but as minister for Countering Illegal Migration, Michael Tomlinson, said: "illegal migration is a global problem that requires global solutions".
Good that the UK is now highlighting the problem's global nature — let's hope its activities will eventually stretch to global promotion of the idea, and global cooperation and action...
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Post by Zany on Jun 27, 2024 15:57:45 GMT
Make up your mind Vinny. Only yesterday you were telling me public opinion was Eurosceptic. Now now, cool down. What nonsense, we did far better in the EU than we are now. Not only that but as you keep repeating good or bad its democracy and the people want back in. But as usual having won the vote you're scared to test the water a second time. I'm pro because on balance in was better than out, was then definitely is now. Same to you Care to explain that?
Yes and much bigger than Trinidad, but tiny compared to the US, EU or even Australia's trade group RCEP.
We tried talking to our best buddies in America, but they said sorry guys we can't afford to upset the EU.
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Jun 27, 2024 17:11:50 GMT
Seeing as I support PR, and the replacement of the Lords with a non partisan senate, your point about the Lords (who are scrutineers, just like MEPs are) is null and void. You have no argument for EU membership, only fear of not being tied to apron strings. You lost a democratic vote, the biggest democratic vote in our history and even now, you cannot bring yourself to admit your side lied, cheated, outspent leave and still lost. Get over it. We are sovereign, we can do anything with our sovereignty, including the abolition of customs checks on any nation we have an FTA with. Utter BS We did not have a democratic vote in 2016, had you actually read my posts above you'd see I was not arguing for rejoining and the argument for never leaving wasn't based on apron strings but on access to the word's biggest market. And if you think we can do what we want with our sovereignty you are delusional. You try selling products made to unique UK standards in world markets - you can't. In or out of the trading blocks, simple economics says we have to work to their standards.
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Post by vinny on Jun 27, 2024 23:48:30 GMT
Make up your mind Vinny. Only yesterday you were telling me public opinion was Eurosceptic. Evidently it is Euroskeptic we voted to leave the EU. And you've been in grief ever since. You haven't learned what this is about. This is about democracy. This is about being able to decide for ourselves what our policies are instead of having an unelected Commission decide. And whilst you may have been deliriously happy inside the EU, most people weren't. It wasn't working, the poor were getting poorer, the rich were getting richer. At the time we saw the EU's vengeance against Greece. We saw time and time again, the EU say to people who had referendums, vote again, and again until you give the right answer. You are no democrat. If we were to go back in, you wouldn't give us another membership referendum ever. The EU is going through a reform process and once the treaty has changed, the organisation is different and should be reconsidered in a new light, in the light of whatever treaty changes take place. But right now, on the terms of the Lisbon Treaty, it is an organisation we have democratically chosen, just as Norway democratically voted twice, not to be in.
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Post by vinny on Jun 27, 2024 23:51:48 GMT
You said the same thing when I pointed out the fatal flaws in the policy of free movement which have killed economic migrants. You argued "but but but we can deport them" what good is deporting people who are already destitute and doomed to die from poverty? R.I.P. Pawel Koseda.
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Post by Zany on Jun 28, 2024 5:59:23 GMT
Evidently it is Euroskeptic we voted to leave the EU. And you've been in grief ever since. You haven't learned what this is about. This is about democracy. This is about being able to decide for ourselves what our policies are instead of having an unelected Commission decide. And whilst you may have been deliriously happy inside the EU, most people weren't. It wasn't working, the poor were getting poorer, the rich were getting richer. At the time we saw the EU's vengeance against Greece. We saw time and time again, the EU say to people who had referendums, vote again, and again until you give the right answer. You are no democrat. If we were to go back in, you wouldn't give us another membership referendum ever. The EU is going through a reform process and once the treaty has changed, the organisation is different and should be reconsidered in a new light, in the light of whatever treaty changes take place. But right now, on the terms of the Lisbon Treaty, it is an organisation we have democratically chosen, just as Norway democratically voted twice, not to be in. This conversation is sinking back into the fairyland it lived in during Brexit. A single case of a man dying in poverty proves FoM doesn't work. A claim there can't be a second referendum based on the idea that "we" (Presumably the controlling aliens) would not give a third. And now the old lie about neverendums. Which has been so totally disproven it makes the conversation a joke. Time to park it for me I think.
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Post by vinny on Jun 28, 2024 6:15:43 GMT
Loads of EU migrants ended up on the streets, there were thousands as far back as 2006. Are you that ignorant you didn't know about that?
And so ignorant that you didn't know about all the businesses which either went bust due to imported competition, or left when we were members?
It was economic Darwinism.
It doesn't work.
The countries with low wages and low taxes take work from the countries with high wages and high taxes.
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Jun 28, 2024 9:23:57 GMT
Oh the irony from the poster advocating we do free trade instead with the even power wage paying commonwealth.
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Post by vinny on Jun 28, 2024 11:09:42 GMT
Free trade with caveats. Those nations in the Commonwealth would have to enact political and economic reform including reforming their wage and tax laws, improving living standards so that economic Darwinism would be avoided.
If I were in charge there would be carrot and stick economics. Sanctions & free trade agreements. Every human rights abuser would get no trade. Every human rights respecting democracy with decent wage and tax laws would get free trade.
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Jun 28, 2024 11:28:48 GMT
If you look at the GDP per capita of those commonwealth nations then no degree of wage reform will make them anything other than low wage nations.
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Post by vinny on Jun 28, 2024 19:56:27 GMT
I don't think you realise the importance of the Commonwealth at all. Many of them are sunkissed nations with abundant resources. They are essential partners for undoing climate change. How, you may ask?
Get them involved in fuel production via solar powered carbon capture and fuel synthesis. The Aussies are getting in on fuel synthesis. Botswana has huge areas of desert ideal for the placement of solar power stations carbon capture machines and fuel synthesis plants. Cameroon is a big agricultural producer. Good for lowering food prices. Kenya has plenty of room for its own solar powered fuel synthesis industry.
The Commonwealth has the potential to be an extremely helpful partner against climate change. It's absurd not to seek reform and free trade with the membership.
With fuel synthesis the motorcar becomes carbon neutral. It's a massively important technology that can be of help the world over.
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Post by Steve on Jun 28, 2024 21:47:57 GMT
They are at best second division when it comes to partners for trade deals
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borgr0
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Post by borgr0 on Jul 1, 2024 7:55:07 GMT
Even if we're just nominally linked with the EU (some kind of association agreement) and slowly build upon that, that might be fine. They basically treat a lot of European countries that aren't formally and fully part of the EU as one of their own anyway. That's good enough. As said 4x+ times now - the EU's main purpose is to prevent world war, we should be part of that in any way we can, without getting too bad a deal for ourselves if possible
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