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Post by montegriffo on Jul 1, 2024 10:34:18 GMT
They are at best second division when it comes to partners for trade deals They are also a long way away, in most cases, whilst Europe is right on our doorstep with well established transport links.
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Post by Zany on Jul 1, 2024 10:44:12 GMT
Even if we're just nominally linked with the EU (some kind of association agreement) and slowly build upon that, that might be fine. They basically treat a lot of European countries that aren't formally and fully part of the EU as one of their own anyway. That's good enough. As said 4x+ times now - the EU's main purpose is to prevent world war, we should be part of that in any way we can, without getting too bad a deal for ourselves if possible I think NATO does the war prevention job pretty well. I don't think the EU will let us cherry pick which bits we like as this time, they would see that as lukewarm commitment. I also think that even now the EU trust that we would be there if they were threatened by war.
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borgr0
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Post by borgr0 on Jul 1, 2024 10:54:52 GMT
NATO is under threat from the likes of Trump and doesn't do war prevention very well as we've seen with disunity on Ukraine [Trump now being likely to get in]
The EU allows most member states to cherrypick, as we're seeing with Hungary and others. They would rather have agreements even if states aren't full member states than not and are largely pragmatic about it.
The EU would trust us if there was a war, but we could share resources and intel more effectively if we have better agreements with them
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Post by Zany on Jul 1, 2024 11:12:41 GMT
NATO is under threat from the likes of Trump and doesn't do war prevention very well as we've seen with disunity on Ukraine [Trump now being likely to get in] The EU allows most member states to cherrypick, as we're seeing with Hungary and others. They would rather have agreements even if states aren't full member states than not and are largely pragmatic about it. The EU would trust us if there was a war, but we could share resources and intel more effectively if we have better agreements with them Naah. Trumps just a big mouth. Though he had a point that all members should commit equal to their gdp. I said the EU wouldn't allow US to do that. They have made it clear any desire to re-join has to be a fully committed one, we took too many liberties and were too disruptive last time around and we let Mr Farage represent us in there parliament along with all his disgusting behaviour.
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borgr0
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Post by borgr0 on Jul 1, 2024 11:16:38 GMT
Trump's admin tried to bribe Ukraine to do their bidding to get kompromat on Biden, he tried to prosecute Hillary Clinton and bankrupt her and tried to commit a coup, those are not the actions of an admin that simply talks but doesn't do anything about it. He's a puppet for outside interests who's bidding he's doing
The EU says plenty of stuff, but they'd form an association agreement with us and do deals with us if our govt was sane enough, which might not be the case if Starmer continues the way he's going anyway. Without proper deals with the EU, helping them fight a war - or prevent one - would be that much harder
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Post by Zany on Jul 1, 2024 12:46:27 GMT
Trump's admin tried to bribe Ukraine to do their bidding to get kompromat on Biden, he tried to prosecute Hillary Clinton and bankrupt her and tried to commit a coup, those are not the actions of an admin that simply talks but doesn't do anything about it. He's a puppet for outside interests who's bidding he's doing The EU says plenty of stuff, but they'd form an association agreement with us and do deals with us if our govt was sane enough, which might not be the case if Starmer continues the way he's going anyway. Without proper deals with the EU, helping them fight a war - or prevent one - would be that much harder One of the things I was most reassured by in Trumps presidency was how little he was able to do. The system resisted him and he couldn't do a Hitler. How much wall did he get done Lol Not sure I agree with you on the EU, but we'll only find out if we try. I travel quite a lot around Europe and the main feed back we get now is that they think we were mad to leave but its history for them now.
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Post by patman post on Jul 1, 2024 13:12:16 GMT
Trump's admin tried to bribe Ukraine to do their bidding to get kompromat on Biden, he tried to prosecute Hillary Clinton and bankrupt her and tried to commit a coup, those are not the actions of an admin that simply talks but doesn't do anything about it. He's a puppet for outside interests who's bidding he's doing The EU says plenty of stuff, but they'd form an association agreement with us and do deals with us if our govt was sane enough, which might not be the case if Starmer continues the way he's going anyway. Without proper deals with the EU, helping them fight a war - or prevent one - would be that much harder I doubt the EU would be inclined do deals with the UK that would be acceptable to a sane-enough govt In Westminster — few, if any, of the opt-outs, concessions, or special financial arrangements that the UK had negotiated hard for and won while a member would be available. A deal would require there to be something in it for everyone involved. What would a fractured UK be able to reasonably offer the rapidly evolving EU…?
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Post by AvonCalling on Jul 1, 2024 13:46:42 GMT
60m plus consumers
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Post by Zany on Jul 1, 2024 13:59:33 GMT
Trump's admin tried to bribe Ukraine to do their bidding to get kompromat on Biden, he tried to prosecute Hillary Clinton and bankrupt her and tried to commit a coup, those are not the actions of an admin that simply talks but doesn't do anything about it. He's a puppet for outside interests who's bidding he's doing The EU says plenty of stuff, but they'd form an association agreement with us and do deals with us if our govt was sane enough, which might not be the case if Starmer continues the way he's going anyway. Without proper deals with the EU, helping them fight a war - or prevent one - would be that much harder I doubt the EU would be inclined do deals with the UK that would be acceptable to a sane-enough govt In Westminster — few, if any, of the opt-outs, concessions, or special financial arrangements that the UK had negotiated hard for and won while a member would be available. A deal would require there to be something in it for everyone involved. What would a fractured UK be able to reasonably offer the rapidly evolving EU…? If that was the criteria then Poland and Romania would not have got a look in. We are still one of the big 7 and have a lot of projects that would gear well with the EU. What they want more than anything is commitment, they don't want a flaky maybe in maybe out Uk disrupting them. That's why I think a poll showing 60% or more in favour of re-joining will be their minimum requirement.
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Post by vinny on Jul 1, 2024 16:16:03 GMT
They are at best second division when it comes to partners for trade deals Incorrect. Our need for environmentally friendly fuel makes them essential partners as does our demand for out of season food. They produce things we can't. Complimentary trade. And with their help, the Commonwealth will become a very strong and forceful diplomatic voice at the UN. There's no question that we need free trade with the EU, but we have free trade with the EU.
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Steve
Hero Protagonist
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Post by Steve on Jul 1, 2024 17:57:45 GMT
Maybe you didn't notice how trivial that deal with Oz is in terms of benefiting the UK. 0.08% by 2035. The challenge is the distance whereas for other commonwealth countries the challenge is their low wages which mean they will actually take jobs from the UK
And remember the more swivel eyed in the Tory party and all of Reform want to tear up that free trade deal we have with the EU in some obscene act of self harm
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borgr0
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Post by borgr0 on Jul 1, 2024 18:30:26 GMT
Trump's admin tried to bribe Ukraine to do their bidding to get kompromat on Biden, he tried to prosecute Hillary Clinton and bankrupt her and tried to commit a coup, those are not the actions of an admin that simply talks but doesn't do anything about it. He's a puppet for outside interests who's bidding he's doing The EU says plenty of stuff, but they'd form an association agreement with us and do deals with us if our govt was sane enough, which might not be the case if Starmer continues the way he's going anyway. Without proper deals with the EU, helping them fight a war - or prevent one - would be that much harder One of the things I was most reassured by in Trumps presidency was how little he was able to do. The system resisted him and he couldn't do a Hitler. How much wall did he get done Lol Not sure I agree with you on the EU, but we'll only find out if we try. I travel quite a lot around Europe and the main feed back we get now is that they think we were mad to leave but its history for them now. Quite a lot of the wall was built and he forced the hands of Biden to continue building the wall, which he has been doing on and off despite trying to stall Trump only failed because Mike Pence didn't go along with his plan else it might have succeeded, the fact he's getting in again shows deep flaws in the system I agree we'll only find out if we try, but I'm fairly sure they don't mind countries half associating with the EU, a lot of countries are half in half out and at times flaky. IIRC Greenland left in 1985 but they have plenty of agreements with the EU regardless and send plenty of subsidies to that country The UK is the sixth largest economy in the world currently, I'm sure the UK already offers plenty despite what the big wigs in the EU have said in the past - they have to be seen to be knocking Britain in the Continent to appeal to their voters there and denigrate Brexit, which is understandable and a voting tactic as well as a negotiating one (formerly anyway) We can start with better agreements on policing our borders together along with FRONTEX, plus commitments to fixing our broken trade borders due to Brexit - destroying the red tape that has been wrapped around many EU and UK business's necks and work on stopping the bleeding of EU citizens from the UK, as they've been leaving in droves
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Post by Zany on Jul 1, 2024 18:41:52 GMT
They are at best second division when it comes to partners for trade deals Incorrect. Our need for environmentally friendly fuel makes them essential partners as does our demand for out of season food. They produce things we can't. Complimentary trade. And with their help, the Commonwealth will become a very strong and forceful diplomatic voice at the UN. There's no question that we need free trade with the EU, but we have free trade with the EU. Complimentary trade? What do we sell to Australia?
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borgr0
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Post by borgr0 on Jul 1, 2024 18:42:41 GMT
Maybe you didn't notice how trivial that deal with Oz is in terms of benefiting the UK. 0.08% by 2035. The challenge is the distance whereas for other commonwealth countries the challenge is their low wages which mean they will actually take jobs from the UK And remember the more swivel eyed in the Tory party and all of Reform want to tear up that free trade deal we have with the EU in some obscene act of self harm Sounds like me Nonetheless, doing free trade deals that are beneficial with the world's largest economies - places like India - which just overtook us as the fifth largest economy IIRC - would be a good thing provided they change their govt from Modi's BJP in the future I don't think it has to be an either/or scenario, we need trade deals with as many countries as we can get both in Europe and outside it and that's where I differ from both Brexiters and Remainers The Oz trade deal was a terrible deal as have been many others the Tories negotiated, which doesn't mean deals Labour negotiated whilst in the EU were particularly any better, although nothing beats the Oz trade deal for a bad deal
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Post by patman post on Jul 1, 2024 18:49:09 GMT
But not 60m plus consumers who are sharing in the income from rising exports. Don’t be fooled by the GDP per capita figures, it’s the government that’s collecting to service the trillion debt the UK has built up, not ordinary citizens struggling with rising everyday costs and depleting food banks. The UK doesn’t even currently offer the EU a geographically useful location for accessing other significant potential markets…
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