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Post by Zany on Jun 26, 2024 17:44:45 GMT
Did you have to dust off that tub before you started thumping it again. You think all the peoples of Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Croatia, Republic of Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands Don't have democracy? Those tired old lines aren't convincing anyone anymore. As an aside, I'm in the Netherlands at the moment. The difference to the conditions in the UK are stark. The roads maintained, the people happy, no boarded up shops here, the economy thriving. Its a beautiful place like England used to be. The last sentence is really interesting. I have just got back from Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia. Much the same. Well maintained , seemingly thriving, safe, happy even the small non touristy towns I travelled through. I arrived back late in Luton so stayed overnight in St Albans. Herds of drunken yobs, vomit on the pavements, confrontation with police thoroughly depressing. Had much the same thoughts returning last year from Spain. Is this just an illusion or have we lost our way as a country. I think we have just lived through 16 years of bad times and people are exhausted. In the 1990 recession my wife and I nearly lost everything (house the lot) but 5 years later we were up and running again, new home, money in the bank. This recession has gone on since 2008. People have either lost the will to live or the respect for their country. Nothing works, the police collect easy money by sticking 40mph speed limits on motorways for miles for no reason but don't stop shop lifters emptying shelves. The council can't look after those in need. The ill suffer unattended, or sit at home off sick while they wait years for operations. I could go on, but I think in summary we are all just worn out.
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Post by Zany on Jun 26, 2024 17:48:42 GMT
How was the crossing? Did the dinghy make it unassisted? Gibraltarians are of course full British citizens with UK passports but these particular Montegriffos came up from Hampshire so didn't pass through border control. You say that, but only because our elitist worldist government handed out passports like confetti. They're all filthy foreigners really. Still that said, nice area Hampshire. Hope you had a nice few days with them.
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Steve
Hero Protagonist
Posts: 2,556
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Post by Steve on Jun 26, 2024 20:35:48 GMT
Not in relation to the EU Commission (the only body in the EU with the power of legislative initiative), no. Voters cannot elect them, or sack them. . . . Same as with our cabinet members. And same as with our system the elected parliament can block them to the point they have to resign. Oh and the European Parliament being elected by PR is more democratic than ours.
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Post by vinny on Jun 27, 2024 6:44:44 GMT
Seeing as I support PR, and the replacement of the Lords with a non partisan senate, your point about the Lords (who are scrutineers, just like MEPs are) is null and void.
You have no argument for EU membership, only fear of not being tied to apron strings.
You lost a democratic vote, the biggest democratic vote in our history and even now, you cannot bring yourself to admit your side lied, cheated, outspent leave and still lost.
Get over it.
We are sovereign, we can do anything with our sovereignty, including the abolition of customs checks on any nation we have an FTA with.
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Post by Zany on Jun 27, 2024 7:34:02 GMT
Seeing as I support PR, and the replacement of the Lords with a non partisan senate, your point about the Lords (who are scrutineers, just like MEPs are) is null and void. You have no argument for EU membership, only fear of not being tied to apron strings. You lost a democratic vote, the biggest democratic vote in our history and even now, you cannot bring yourself to admit your side lied, cheated, outspent leave and still lost. Get over it. We are sovereign, we can do anything with our sovereignty, including the abolition of customs checks on any nation we have an FTA with. Democratic votes are not one off things Vinny. The people have tasted Brexit and they don't like it. Time for a second vote. And, no we can't do what we like with our sovereignty, like it or no we are part of the world. Or actions effect how we are treated by others. We could leave the ICHR and no one would stop us but it would make them think again about how trustworthy we are. We could do a Liz Truss but the rest of the world will punish us for it. So assuming anyone wants an FTA with tiny UK (That is to say one worth anything to us) Yes we could abolish custom checks but then everything we sell to our neighbours will need extra checks to satisfy them it meets there criteria. In most cases they just shrug and buy it from a trusted source, I might find your opinions more believable if they were more balanced. Anything you can think of that was good about EU membership?
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Post by vinny on Jun 27, 2024 8:53:14 GMT
Opinion polls are one thing, referendums are another. Prior to the referendum your side kept confidently telling leavers the country would vote to stay because the polls said so. And at that time there was a rebate, opt outs etc. There wouldn't be a rebate or opt outs again. We would have to join the Euro, Schengen, every EU policy would be mandatory. You people cheated and lost. When we were in last time the result was industrial decline and high unemployment. You're saying we should rejoin the EU and suffer more industrial decline and high unemployment just so the rich can get richer. You have no idea if we want to go back, I certainly don't (not unless it massively reforms). You're clutching at straws out of desperation. Get over it. Focus on real issues like deprived areas and the poverty legacy from when we were members.
And we're not tiny, we're a nation of 70 million people, that's more than Canada and Australia put together.
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Post by AvonCalling on Jun 27, 2024 9:32:51 GMT
Seeing as I support PR, and the replacement of the Lords with a non partisan senate, your point about the Lords (who are scrutineers, just like MEPs are) is null and void. You have no argument for EU membership, only fear of not being tied to apron strings. You lost a democratic vote, the biggest democratic vote in our history and even now, you cannot bring yourself to admit your side lied, cheated, outspent leave and still lost. Get over it. We are sovereign, we can do anything with our sovereignty, including the abolition of customs checks on any nation we have an FTA with. Democratic votes are not one off things Vinny. The people have tasted Brexit and they don't like it. Time for a second vote. And, no we can't do what we like with our sovereignty, like it or no we are part of the world. Or actions effect how we are treated by others. We could leave the ICHR and no one would stop us but it would make them think again about how trustworthy we are. We could do a Liz Truss but the rest of the world will punish us for it. So assuming anyone wants an FTA with tiny UK (That is to say one worth anything to us) Yes we could abolish custom checks but then everything we sell to our neighbours will need extra checks to satisfy them it meets there criteria. In most cases they just shrug and buy it from a trusted source, I might find your opinions more believable if they were more balanced. Anything you can think of that was good about EU membership? Is there a ICHR and a ECHR? TRYING to clarify what you are saying first
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Post by vinny on Jun 27, 2024 9:46:10 GMT
There is no international court of Human Rights, the European Court of Human Rights and the European Convention (which are both from the Council of Europe) I regard as generally good things.
And my suggestion regarding illegal immigration, is to put processing camps up in Scotland on currently uninhabited islands. Those who are genuine asylum seekers will be glad of shelter and not being shot at. Those who are not asylum seekers, and just want a five star hotel room will stop bothering.
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Post by AvonCalling on Jun 27, 2024 10:04:16 GMT
One of the reasons I ask is because I was just listening to someone who was saying exiting the ECHR was a policy that was polling well in the country. I assume this is due to people's frustration with illegal immigrants
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Post by vinny on Jun 27, 2024 12:23:07 GMT
We can stop illegal immigration without leaving the ECHR. The only major country in Europe not in the Council of Europe, is Russia, lets not emulate it.
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Post by andrewbrown on Jun 27, 2024 12:33:15 GMT
(and Belarus, but I agree with your point.)
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Post by AvonCalling on Jun 27, 2024 12:43:01 GMT
How do you think we can stop illegal immigration whilst in the ECHR?
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Post by vinny on Jun 27, 2024 12:50:57 GMT
How do you think we can stop illegal immigration whilst in the ECHR? Sticking all the illegal immigrants currently in hotels, into tented refugee camps on currently uninhabited Scottish islands whilst making sure that those camps are compliant with human rights law, with food, water, sanitation, washing and recreational facilities available. Doing as the BBC has done, to identify the smugglers. Catching them, putting them on trial, convicting them and putting them in prison. Whole life sentences for the ones who have caused deaths. Whole life sentences for the ones who carry guns.
Make the risks bigger than the rewards.
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Post by patman post on Jun 27, 2024 12:56:21 GMT
How do you think we can stop illegal immigration whilst in the ECHR? The anti ECHR rhetoric is a desperate excuse for the failure of a Brexit dog whistle promise.
How is the UK going to stop illegal immigration without being part of an international cooperative effort to tackle it at source...?
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Post by AvonCalling on Jun 27, 2024 13:08:25 GMT
How do you think we can stop illegal immigration whilst in the ECHR? Sticking all the illegal immigrants currently in hotels, into tented refugee camps on currently uninhabited Scottish islands whilst making sure that those camps are compliant with human rights law, with food, water, sanitation, washing and recreational facilities available. Doing as the BBC has done, to identify the smugglers. Catching them, putting them on trial, convicting them and putting them in prison. Whole life sentences for the ones who have caused deaths. Whole life sentences for the ones who carry guns.
Make the risks bigger than the rewards.
That doesn't seem unreasonable. I wonder why a Tory government hasn't done this already. Perhaps they could find a place for a camp?
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