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Post by RedRum on Jun 7, 2024 9:13:14 GMT
But the 5 year old does not pay the tax the person giving them the money pay the tax. Nope, the 5 year old has made the buying decision, they have paid the tax Would you argue that no one pays income tax because the employer pays it? Do you mean they could have bought books with the money given to them by a tax payer, this is really silly, give it up. There are much better examples to possibly show why 16 year olds should not vote such as hormonal or radicalisation but you are stuck on 5 year olds paying tax. Here you go then, since 5 year olds pay taxes they should.
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Post by Orac on Jun 7, 2024 9:27:26 GMT
I would agree if we were living 50 years ago but the wealth of information available to children nowadays is huge, certainly not what I, or yourself I would expect, were exposed to. I started paying tax at 15 like most of my peer group but we were not allowed a voice as to how and where those taxes were spent. I employ quite a number of 16 to 18 year olds doing Saturday jobs. My experience is that they believe what they read and think anything bad is due to lack of care rather than reality. I quite enjoy conversations with them pointing out the gap between wishes and possibilities. I have worked with a group on building a business plan after one told me I was making a fortune because they knew to difference between their hourly rate and the charge we make to the public. Interesting afternoon that was. (Yes I did pay those who attended, because I felt they were missing a life skill.) This has given me an idea. Children need to play a game designed to illustrate the difficulties of the various roles and how appearances can be deceptive. The game starts with a business owner taking out a massive loan, re-mortgaging his house and making the decision to hire other players.
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Steve
Hero Protagonist
Posts: 3,633
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Post by Steve on Jun 7, 2024 9:31:45 GMT
I employ quite a number of 16 to 18 year olds doing Saturday jobs. My experience is that they believe what they read and think anything bad is due to lack of care rather than reality. I quite enjoy conversations with them pointing out the gap between wishes and possibilities. I have worked with a group on building a business plan after one told me I was making a fortune because they knew to difference between their hourly rate and the charge we make to the public. Interesting afternoon that was. (Yes I did pay those who attended, because I felt they were missing a life skill.) There are adults who are allowed to vote but have very poor life skills, my point has always been that those people who are eligible to contribute financially to society should be allowed to vote for who will represent their interests. Just the wrong criteria and a Tories dream because as we know most of the working classes are not net contributors to society. The criteria shoud be based on the degree to which society impacts the individual AND the likelihood they can make responsible decisions.
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Post by Zany on Jun 7, 2024 10:34:50 GMT
But the 5 year old does not pay the tax the person giving them the money pay the tax. Nope, the 5 year old has made the buying decision, they have paid the tax Would you argue that no one pays income tax because the employer pays it? Pedantry Steve.
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Post by Zany on Jun 7, 2024 10:37:04 GMT
I employ quite a number of 16 to 18 year olds doing Saturday jobs. My experience is that they believe what they read and think anything bad is due to lack of care rather than reality. I quite enjoy conversations with them pointing out the gap between wishes and possibilities. I have worked with a group on building a business plan after one told me I was making a fortune because they knew to difference between their hourly rate and the charge we make to the public. Interesting afternoon that was. (Yes I did pay those who attended, because I felt they were missing a life skill.) This has given me an idea. Children need to play a game designed to illustrate the difficulties of the various roles and how appearances can be deceptive. The game starts with a business owner taking out a massive loan, re-mortgaging his house and making the decision to hire other players. Actually I've invented a few board games, I might look at something educational like that.
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Post by Zany on Jun 7, 2024 10:42:30 GMT
I employ quite a number of 16 to 18 year olds doing Saturday jobs. My experience is that they believe what they read and think anything bad is due to lack of care rather than reality. I quite enjoy conversations with them pointing out the gap between wishes and possibilities. I have worked with a group on building a business plan after one told me I was making a fortune because they knew to difference between their hourly rate and the charge we make to the public. Interesting afternoon that was. (Yes I did pay those who attended, because I felt they were missing a life skill.) There are adults who are allowed to vote but have very poor life skills, my point has always been that those people who are eligible to contribute financially to society should be allowed to vote for who will represent their interests. Its a numbers game. Most adults have some life experience, you have to draw a straight line somewhere. Unless you are suggesting a knowledge test in the polling booth. I disagree with your remit for voting. One could argue that if you pay more you should get extra votes.
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Post by Zany on Jun 7, 2024 10:44:10 GMT
There are adults who are allowed to vote but have very poor life skills, my point has always been that those people who are eligible to contribute financially to society should be allowed to vote for who will represent their interests. Just the wrong criteria and a Tories dream because as we know most of the working classes are not net contributors to society. The criteria shoud be based on the degree to which society impacts the individual AND the likelihood they can make responsible decisions. For me the criteria is do you live here and do you have a reasonable understanding what you are voting for.
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Post by RedRum on Jun 7, 2024 13:35:01 GMT
There are adults who are allowed to vote but have very poor life skills, my point has always been that those people who are eligible to contribute financially to society should be allowed to vote for who will represent their interests. Its a numbers game. Most adults have some life experience, you have to draw a straight line somewhere. Unless you are suggesting a knowledge test in the polling booth. I disagree with your remit for voting. One could argue that if you pay more you should get extra votes. UK Youth Parliament. Established 25 years ago, the UK Youth Parliament is made up of more than 300 young people aged between 11 and 18 years, elected as Members of Youth Parliament (MYPs) to represent the views of their peers. It provides opportunities for young people to bring about social change through meaningful representation and campaigning. (NYA) There was nothing like this when I was growing up. Times and the youth of the country have changed and politics needs to change with it. Some people argued against giving women the vote, I mean how stupid does that sound today?
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Post by Orac on Jun 7, 2024 16:52:35 GMT
Its a numbers game. Most adults have some life experience, you have to draw a straight line somewhere. Unless you are suggesting a knowledge test in the polling booth. I disagree with your remit for voting. One could argue that if you pay more you should get extra votes. Some people argued against giving women the vote, I mean how stupid does that sound today? Unintentionally hilarious award.
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Post by Zany on Jun 7, 2024 18:21:09 GMT
Its a numbers game. Most adults have some life experience, you have to draw a straight line somewhere. Unless you are suggesting a knowledge test in the polling booth. I disagree with your remit for voting. One could argue that if you pay more you should get extra votes. UK Youth Parliament. Established 25 years ago, the UK Youth Parliament is made up of more than 300 young people aged between 11 and 18 years, elected as Members of Youth Parliament (MYPs) to represent the views of their peers. It provides opportunities for young people to bring about social change through meaningful representation and campaigning. (NYA) There was nothing like this when I was growing up. Times and the youth of the country have changed and politics needs to change with it. Some people argued against giving women the vote, I mean how stupid does that sound today? Tiny numbers. But as I say, my experience is that they tend to think everything is possible and if its not done it because of greed. Bit like the left wing who think everything is possible if only someone else would pay for it. Some people argued that only the rich should vote. I mean how stupid does that sound today? I don't understand what your example has to do with children voting. Why are you limiting it to 16 year olds? Why not 13 year olds?
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Steve
Hero Protagonist
Posts: 3,633
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Post by Steve on Jun 7, 2024 20:50:50 GMT
Cos he thinks they should be up the chimneys?
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Post by RedRum on Jun 8, 2024 4:56:23 GMT
UK Youth Parliament. Established 25 years ago, the UK Youth Parliament is made up of more than 300 young people aged between 11 and 18 years, elected as Members of Youth Parliament (MYPs) to represent the views of their peers. It provides opportunities for young people to bring about social change through meaningful representation and campaigning. (NYA) There was nothing like this when I was growing up. Times and the youth of the country have changed and politics needs to change with it. Some people argued against giving women the vote, I mean how stupid does that sound today? Tiny numbers. But as I say, my experience is that they tend to think everything is possible and if its not done it because of greed. Bit like the left wing who think everything is possible if only someone else would pay for it. Some people argued that only the rich should vote. I mean how stupid does that sound today? I don't understand what your example has to do with children voting. Why are you limiting it to 16 year olds? Why not 13 year olds? 16 year olds are the target cohort, 13 year olds are not. It is not me that is setting the limit. I would think and it is only my opinion that given the information that is available to this cohort and the fact that they are eligible for taxes is the reason "Children cannot start any full time work until they reach the minimum school leaving age. Once they do, UK child employment laws allow them to work up to a maximum of forty (40) hours a week. As an employer, you may need to pay them through the PAYE system once they turn sixteen (16) years old." .
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Post by RedRum on Jun 8, 2024 4:57:05 GMT
Cos he thinks they should be up the chimneys? Hmmmm. That comment sort of proves my other statement about adults.
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Post by Zany on Jun 8, 2024 6:58:08 GMT
Tiny numbers. But as I say, my experience is that they tend to think everything is possible and if its not done it because of greed. Bit like the left wing who think everything is possible if only someone else would pay for it. Some people argued that only the rich should vote. I mean how stupid does that sound today? I don't understand what your example has to do with children voting. Why are you limiting it to 16 year olds? Why not 13 year olds? 16 year olds are the target cohort, 13 year olds are not. It is not me that is setting the limit. I would think and it is only my opinion that given the information that is available to this cohort and the fact that they are eligible for taxes is the reason "Children cannot start any full time work until they reach the minimum school leaving age. Once they do, UK child employment laws allow them to work up to a maximum of forty (40) hours a week. As an employer, you may need to pay them through the PAYE system once they turn sixteen (16) years old." . A 14 year old can work 12 hours a week and contributes to the economy and taxation. When I joined this thread your argument was not (because Labour say 16) it was because 16 year olds pay taxes. Beyond that its down to whether you think 16 is mature enough to understand the long term consequences of your decisions. My experience is that they don't. They can be taught but they aren't.
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Post by Zany on Jun 8, 2024 6:59:24 GMT
Cos he thinks they should be up the chimneys? Hmmmm. That comment sort of proves my other statement about adults. But Redrum, at least they'd be contributing to the economy and could vote.
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