Steve
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Post by Steve on May 31, 2024 9:30:21 GMT
If Labour win power and give votes to 16 year olds then shouldn't they also remove the limited criminal liability 16 year olds enjoy? So sent to real jails and not young offenders institutions, not reduced sentencing and certainly no anonymity?
Anything else would be cake and eat it.
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Post by patman post on May 31, 2024 12:42:56 GMT
There's a whole lot that needs to be considered. I'm not necessarily against involving people in politics at a younger age. But being 16 does not yet give anyone total independence/responsibility.
Even though pupils can leave school on the last Friday in June of the school year in which they reach 16 years of age, currently they must still either stay in full-time education, or start an apprenticeship or traineeship...
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Post by RedRum on Jun 1, 2024 11:15:30 GMT
Part of the point about 16 year old being treated as 'minors' in a legal case has a lot to do with them being sent to an adult prison which further endangers them. Most 16 year olds are well aware of political matters and should be able to vote in elections in matters that can affect their future.
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Jun 1, 2024 11:57:33 GMT
Then they should take full responsibility for their actions then. Otherwise it's cake and eat it idiocy.
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Post by RedRum on Jun 1, 2024 13:51:22 GMT
Then they should take full responsibility for their actions then. Otherwise it's cake and eat it idiocy. You are likening chalk and cheese, voting and criminality.. Youths can be locked up if they commit crimes worthy of it but by sending them to adult prisons is only a path that would lead to disaster later in life. At 16 a person can and has turned their life around and become a useful member of society, that's not to say adults do not because some do.
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Jun 1, 2024 17:06:48 GMT
Or in short you are admitting that 16 year olds are not adult (enough to vote)
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Post by Orac on Jun 1, 2024 17:45:58 GMT
If Labour win power and give votes to 16 year olds then shouldn't they also remove the limited criminal liability 16 year olds enjoy? So sent to real jails and not young offenders institutions, not reduced sentencing and certainly no anonymity? Anything else would be cake and eat it. The jails are now full and I doubt labour will build any, so it is all rather moot.
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Post by patman post on Jun 2, 2024 11:38:35 GMT
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Post by RedRum on Jun 2, 2024 13:53:47 GMT
Or in short you are admitting that 16 year olds are not adult (enough to vote) Not at all. I am saying that the two things have no comparison, committing crimes and voting in an election. 16yo's are perfectly capable of making the right and wrong choices just as adults are, (some adults would like to see Johnson back as PM. A choice in a election should be based on knowledge unless you consider all 16yo's to be thick, their choice will not lead to a prison sentence. Committing a crime is also a choice and they should be punished but a 16yo is physically more vulnerable than a 20yo and should be treated accordingly. Don't get me wrong, serious crimes should be treated harshly but putting them at risk should not be an option. Crime is anti-social, voting is not.
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Post by RedRum on Jun 2, 2024 13:55:39 GMT
If Labour win power and give votes to 16 year olds then shouldn't they also remove the limited criminal liability 16 year olds enjoy? So sent to real jails and not young offenders institutions, not reduced sentencing and certainly no anonymity? Anything else would be cake and eat it. The jails are now full and I doubt labour will build any, so it is all rather moot. Labour, the way they are going would empty the prisons with early releases.
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Jun 2, 2024 15:33:03 GMT
Or in short you are admitting that 16 year olds are not adult (enough to vote) Not at all. I am saying that the two things have no comparison, committing crimes and voting in an election. 16yo's are perfectly capable of making the right and wrong choices just as adults are, (some adults would like to see Johnson back as PM. A choice in a election should be based on knowledge unless you consider all 16yo's to be thick, their choice will not lead to a prison sentence. Committing a crime is also a choice and they should be punished but a 16yo is physically more vulnerable than a 20yo and should be treated accordingly. Don't get me wrong, serious crimes should be treated harshly but putting them at risk should not be an option. Crime is anti-social, voting is not. Way to miss the point (which is about whether brains are sufficiently mature)
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Post by RedRum on Jun 3, 2024 2:36:29 GMT
Not at all. I am saying that the two things have no comparison, committing crimes and voting in an election. 16yo's are perfectly capable of making the right and wrong choices just as adults are, (some adults would like to see Johnson back as PM. A choice in a election should be based on knowledge unless you consider all 16yo's to be thick, their choice will not lead to a prison sentence. Committing a crime is also a choice and they should be punished but a 16yo is physically more vulnerable than a 20yo and should be treated accordingly. Don't get me wrong, serious crimes should be treated harshly but putting them at risk should not be an option. Crime is anti-social, voting is not. Way to miss the point (which is about whether brains are sufficiently mature) Pensioners with 'cognitive' difficulties are allowed to vote as are adults with long criminal records, paedophiles, rapists, the list goes on, should there be a test for brain maturity before voting? 16yo olds are eligible to pay taxes and should be allowed to have a say in how those taxes are used.
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Jun 3, 2024 8:05:57 GMT
5 year olds pay taxes, you want them to have the vote too?
And you're still missing the actual point. Mature enough to vote means mature enough to fully understand and be responsible for committing crime
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Post by RedRum on Jun 3, 2024 8:23:29 GMT
5 year olds pay taxes, you want them to have the vote too? And you're still missing the actual point. Mature enough to vote means mature enough to fully understand and be responsible for committing crime 5 year olds do not work for the money that is spent on them therefore they do not pay taxes, your argument is flawed. I agree that young people should pay the consequences of their crimes, when caught but putting them in an adult prison will put them in further danger. 16yo's have access to information that I, for one, did not have at 16 and are much more savvy by consequence.
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Jun 3, 2024 8:44:55 GMT
Wrong! A five year old goes into a shop to buy sweets and they pay Value Added Tax
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