|
Post by Zany on May 2, 2024 14:11:52 GMT
Hope you don't mind Vinny but I moved this part of the thread to its own place as I'm not that interested in the BNP etc. vinny wrote How our system works: Parties propose manifestos, get elected the public have some say because they can kick a government out, government then puts policies to the vote in the Commons which then go to the unelected Lords for scrutiny. How their system works, the Commission proposes policies MEPs scrutinise. For an MEP to propose a policy he or she has to go to a committee, then make a request to the Commission, who then draw up a policy and put it to the Parliament. Their system is the other way around. But the EU is not a country and the voters get to elect both their own government and their MEP's The people you elected then represent you in the European parliament. Nothing the European parliament promotes goes through unless every country agrees to it. Your analogy cannot be a direct comparison. Truth is nothing changes unless your government agree to it. More importantly nothing happened, full stop. We were warned the bureaucrats were coming and suddenly nothing happened. You may not have wanted FoM, but the elected government of the UK did and they claim to represent the majority of voters in the UK. Tell me a few things the Commission has foisted upn the remaining members of the EU that they as countries voted against.
|
|
|
Post by vinny on May 2, 2024 15:07:17 GMT
The governments of countries are not the electorate of countries. The UK never had a particularly representative system for the election of governments anyway. Policies therefore were rammed through, without referendums. Policies which gave greater powers and money to the EU, without our say. Policies which gave away vetoes without our say. Even the establishment of EU Rapid Reaction forces was pushed through, without our say.
If you think immigration is why I voted leave, you haven't been paying attention. I was voting UKIP in the days when they were proposing rejoining EFTA (which has freedom of movement).
The EU is in the process of adopting all the powers and sovereignty of a country and we were not consulted at all until 2016. Some fanatics call it "the European Project" and it is. It's a project to create a superstate.
For a superstate to work, it needs elected politicians to have legislative initiative instead of the Commission.
|
|
|
Post by vinny on May 2, 2024 15:08:53 GMT
And regarding "foisted". When the electorate are not given a vote on something which is pushed through anyway, that something is foisted.
|
|
|
Post by Zany on May 2, 2024 18:27:27 GMT
And regarding "foisted". When the electorate are not given a vote on something which is pushed through anyway, that something is foisted. So the national insurance reduction was foisted upon us?
|
|
|
Post by vinny on May 2, 2024 20:32:33 GMT
Increased alcohol taxes were foisted upon us by the EEC, EEC and then EU tariffs were foisted upon us, the CAP, the CFP, the first, second, third and fourth railway packages were foisted upon us, EU military staff were foisted upon us, EU foreign policy including FTAs with dictatorships were foisted upon us. EU energy market policies were foisted upon us including the coal phaseout which has caused havoc for steel producers.
The ship building industry suffered severe harm as a result of the EU's predecessor, the EEC ending subsidies in 1990.
It may be an important market, but it's not well run, desperately needs reform and David Cameron failed to achieve reform.
|
|
|
Post by Zany on May 2, 2024 21:22:38 GMT
Increased alcohol taxes were foisted upon us by the EEC, EEC and then EU tariffs were foisted upon us, the CAP, the CFP, the first, second, third and fourth railway packages were foisted upon us, EU military staff were foisted upon us, EU foreign policy including FTAs with dictatorships were foisted upon us. EU energy market policies were foisted upon us including the coal phaseout which has caused havoc for steel producers. The ship building industry suffered severe harm as a result of the EU's predecessor, the EEC ending subsidies in 1990. It may be an important market, but it's not well run, desperately needs reform and David Cameron failed to achieve reform. And our government were forced to accept all these things unwillingly.
|
|
Steve
Hero Protagonist
Posts: 3,633
|
Post by Steve on May 2, 2024 22:56:29 GMT
Apparently to some England not qualifying for the 1994 World Cup was all the EU's fault
|
|
|
Post by vinny on May 3, 2024 8:43:32 GMT
Increased alcohol taxes were foisted upon us by the EEC, EEC and then EU tariffs were foisted upon us, the CAP, the CFP, the first, second, third and fourth railway packages were foisted upon us, EU military staff were foisted upon us, EU foreign policy including FTAs with dictatorships were foisted upon us. EU energy market policies were foisted upon us including the coal phaseout which has caused havoc for steel producers. The ship building industry suffered severe harm as a result of the EU's predecessor, the EEC ending subsidies in 1990. It may be an important market, but it's not well run, desperately needs reform and David Cameron failed to achieve reform. And our government were forced to accept all these things unwillingly. Our government are not the voters.
|
|
|
Post by Zany on May 3, 2024 8:52:25 GMT
And our government were forced to accept all these things unwillingly. Our government are not the voters. Precisely. you elect a group to represent you, they decided HS2 not you, They decide tax level not you, they decide which EU rules work for the UK not you. Unless you aspire to direct democracy then this is the best we have. And I repeat, what were these dreadful rules foisted upon us by the EU. Were they worse than the ones offered by our own government
|
|
|
Post by vinny on May 3, 2024 9:00:56 GMT
Too many things were done without mandate. Signing the Nice, Amsterdam and Lisbon Treaties were not in the manifesto of the Labour party. Whilst we were in the EU, every government we'd had was a loser of the EU Parliament elections during their time in office. They had no mandate at EU level. Government is too unrepresentative. The voting system we elect governments with is not great either. We need more direct votes.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 3, 2024 10:50:45 GMT
And regarding "foisted". When the electorate are not given a vote on something which is pushed through anyway, that something is foisted. Like the poll tax? Lol. The ability of majority governments with minority support to foist things upon us has long been a problem inherent to our own flawed FPTP system. This is not the fault of the EU. Though it did mean that our governments could more easily foist upon us things emanating from there which a majority of our own people might not have supported. The reverse could also be true though in terms of our government blocking things emanating from there that a majority of us might have supported, like Major's blocking of the social chapter, which Labour under Blair introduced later anyway.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 3, 2024 11:02:48 GMT
And regarding "foisted". When the electorate are not given a vote on something which is pushed through anyway, that something is foisted. Like the poll tax? Lol. The ability of majority governments with minority support to foist things upon us has long been a problem inherent to our own flawed FPTP system. This is not the fault of the EU. Though it did mean that our governments could more easily foist upon us things emanating from there which a majority of our own people might not have supported. The reverse could also be true though in terms of our government blocking things emanating from there that a majority of us might have supported, like Major's blocking of the social chapter, which Labour under Blair introduced later anyway. Labour itself of course foisted upon us full freedom of movement without giving an apparent hoot about the detrimental impact such an influx of cheap labour would have in keeping pay down whilst driving rents and house prices up. Something which did more than anything else to drive the previously Labour supporting working classes into the arms of Farage and Brexit, not helped by the Labour habit of dismissing legitimate concerns about the adverse economic impacts as racism. This did more than anything else to destroy Labour's red wall seats. I still don't think Labour today - filled as it is by middle class aspirational types - yet fully understands this even now. And are in consequence more likely to regard the working classes as the scum of the earth rather than the salt of the earth. And thus tend to see the working class and their needs as a problem to be managed rather than of working people deserving of a better deal. Not all in Labour think like this of course, but quite a few do. I knew some personally as a former party member in my own locale.
|
|
|
Post by Zany on May 3, 2024 12:36:12 GMT
Too many things were done without mandate. Signing the Nice, Amsterdam and Lisbon Treaties were not in the manifesto of the Labour party. Whilst we were in the EU, every government we'd had was a loser of the EU Parliament elections during their time in office. They had no mandate at EU level. Government is too unrepresentative. The voting system we elect governments with is not great either. So it just got to big and distant? But to balance that you need to look at the limitations on things the EU commission can do. By example. Your UK government could bring back prison sentences for minor offences in the UK. The EU commission cannot bring in such a law across its member states. This is why I keep asking what are these laws that were being foisted upon us and which have been abandoned since we left? Its a matter of balance and seeing things as they really are. Slightly different subject, but I tend to agree. I think any major change proposed by a government should be run a bit like an election, whereby they spend a month explaining the change and costing it. Then being challenged by opposition parties and vested interested parties. At the end of which we should have a vote. Not some go to a polling station and sign in with photo identity, just an internet vote using your NI number. No change should be made unless 60% of the voters agree with it.
|
|
|
Post by Zany on May 3, 2024 12:37:19 GMT
And regarding "foisted". When the electorate are not given a vote on something which is pushed through anyway, that something is foisted. Like the poll tax? Lol. The ability of majority governments with minority support to foist things upon us has long been a problem inherent to our own flawed FPTP system. This is not the fault of the EU. Though it did mean that our governments could more easily foist upon us things emanating from there which a majority of our own people might not have supported. The reverse could also be true though in terms of our government blocking things emanating from there that a majority of us might have supported, like Major's blocking of the social chapter, which Labour under Blair introduced later anyway. Actually that's a really bad example. Public opinion reversed the decision on the Poll tax.
|
|
|
Post by vinny on May 3, 2024 12:38:13 GMT
And regarding "foisted". When the electorate are not given a vote on something which is pushed through anyway, that something is foisted. Like the poll tax? Lol. The ability of majority governments with minority support to foist things upon us has long been a problem inherent to our own flawed FPTP system. This is not the fault of the EU. Though it did mean that our governments could more easily foist upon us things emanating from there which a majority of our own people might not have supported. The reverse could also be true though in terms of our government blocking things emanating from there that a majority of us might have supported, like Major's blocking of the social chapter, which Labour under Blair introduced later anyway. The Community Charge aka Poll Tax was at least in the 1987 Conservative Manifesto. The 1990 abolition of subsidies for ship building (which put the British ship building industry into sharp decline) was not in the 1987 Conservative Manifesto and Labour won the 1989 European Parliament election, not the Tories. Signing the Nice, Amsterdam and Lisbon Treaties were not in Labour's manifestos. Nor were the establishment of rapid reaction forces. And post 1997 Labour lost every EU election it contested.
|
|