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Post by patman post on May 17, 2024 12:45:36 GMT
Before Cameron the UK had achieved more exemptions and opt-outs than any of the largest members of the EEC/EU. It also initiated and promoted many proposals for the EEC/EU, which were accepted. Immediately upon joining the EEC, the UK sought to renegotiate the amount of money it paid to the EEC and to secure market access for New Zealand dairy products. In the 1980s, Margaret Thatcher secured a contribution ‘rebate’ to compensate for Britain’s disproportionately low benefit from EEC agricultural subsidies. Thatcher was also instrumental in the Single European Act of 1986, which brought a true single market in goods, services, people and capital by 1992. It is perhaps the loss of ready access to this that's most adversely impacted the UK's earnings from high-tech, price competitive, and perishable exports...
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Post by vinny on May 18, 2024 14:02:39 GMT
For the Single Market to work without economic Darwinism having a ravaging effect, it would need wages and taxes and currency to be uniform.
For that to happen it would need an elected executive.
It would need to become a country.
Reform didn't happen.
What we were in was an economic Darwinist mess which had ruined our manufacturing industries and left millions unemployed.
Quite frankly I'm glad to be out.
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Steve
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Post by Steve on May 19, 2024 11:29:56 GMT
Both the EEC and the EU were / are run by appointed Commissioners whom execute and propose policy completely without public oversight at the ballot box. That is the fundamental problem with it. On top of that there are flawed top down policies like the CAP, eloquently critcised by George Monbiot. There's a monumental waste of cash compared to other free trade organisations such as EFTA. And there's a military staff and Battlegroups who are outside the NATO framework and safeguard of Article 1 of the 1949 treaty. We were promised reform by David Cameron. Reform didn't happen. So much to refute there: The Commission oly runs with the permission of the democratically elected parliament Cameron did get reform but it was conditional on the UK not voting out We have always had battlegroups outside of NATO The EU military (aka EUMS) is just 200 people: all advisers with no ability to direct miltary action |
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Post by vinny on May 20, 2024 12:06:15 GMT
Both the EEC and the EU were / are run by appointed Commissioners whom execute and propose policy completely without public oversight at the ballot box. That is the fundamental problem with it. On top of that there are flawed top down policies like the CAP, eloquently critcised by George Monbiot. There's a monumental waste of cash compared to other free trade organisations such as EFTA. And there's a military staff and Battlegroups who are outside the NATO framework and safeguard of Article 1 of the 1949 treaty. We were promised reform by David Cameron. Reform didn't happen. So much to refute there: The Commission oly runs with the permission of the democratically elected parliament Cameron did get reform but it was conditional on the UK not voting out We have always had battlegroups outside of NATO The EU military (aka EUMS) is just 200 people: all advisers with no ability to direct miltary action Since the EU was founded in 1993, every elected British government has lost the relevant EU elections. The Tories lost in 1994, Labour lost in 1999, 2004, 2009, the Tories lost in 2014. The process of deciding who our member of the executive was, was anything but democratic because VOTERS did not pick the candidate. At one point, we had Baroness Ashton as our member of the executive. What did she do to justify that job? She was foreign secretary of the EU!
If they'd been an elected body, fair enough. But they're not (yet).
Reform would repatriate executive powers either to national parliaments or a directly accountable (to voters), elected body.
I think you miss the point about the EU military staff, and the Battlegroups, nobody ever voted for the jobs to exist or for the EU to have rapid reaction forces.
And you haven't given your thoughts on the CAP....
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Steve
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Post by Steve on May 20, 2024 12:35:10 GMT
The CAP as is (ie not as was) is OK, we've screwed our farming via Brexit leaving us strategically weak
Your wish to have every detail EU decision decided by referendum is interesting but frankly silly. We had referendum interlocks on any big decisions.
And did you vote for Patel, Braverman etc to be Home Secretrary? Of course not. But they like the EU execs have to get their ideas approved by the relevant parliament. So no democratic deficit (not that the EU had or has power over the really important things)
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Post by vinny on May 20, 2024 15:07:35 GMT
George Monbiot. That is the problem with the CAP. It is NOT based on productivity, it is not based on NEED it is based on how much land you have.
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Steve
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Post by Steve on May 20, 2024 18:27:36 GMT
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Post by vinny on May 20, 2024 23:22:13 GMT
Some farmers, but, given how shit the CAP was, and how shit farming was managed when we were in, I don't care.
I am from a big farming family.
My great grandfather brewed cider.
I know a thing or two and I don't sympathise with those farmers who exploited cheap foreign labour to compress wages and avoid unionised workers. Of course those guys are not doing as well, they now have to pay decent wages.
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Steve
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Post by Steve on May 20, 2024 23:57:03 GMT
The NFU is not some farmers, it is the body representing just about all farmers.
Brexit cut off the supply of cheap labour and subsidies aimed at having a strategically stable base of food and then we had to lower tariffs on imports further driving farming down.
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Post by montegriffo on May 21, 2024 0:00:34 GMT
Some farmers, but, given how shit the CAP was, and how shit farming was managed when we were in, I don't care. I am from a big farming family. My great grandfather brewed cider. I know a thing or two and I don't sympathise with those farmers who exploited cheap foreign labour to compress wages and avoid unionised workers. Of course those guys are not doing as well, they now have to pay decent wages. No, they are digging up mature orchards and planting wheat because they can't get the pickers anymore. |
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Post by vinny on May 21, 2024 9:17:42 GMT
This is the nation which invented trade unionism.
Since the days of the Tolpuddle Martyrs there have been those who don't want to work with labourers who are in trade unions.
Of course they can get the pickers.
But unionised ones want a decent wage.
The thing is, the greedy gits won't pay a decent wage and therein lies the crux of it.
The bad farms used Eastern Europeans as a way to bypass the unions and pay slave wages.
Now they're sulking (I say fuck em).
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Steve
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Post by Steve on May 21, 2024 10:26:18 GMT
This is the nation which invented trade unionism. Since the days of the Tolpuddle Martyrs there have been those who don't want to work with labourers who are in trade unions. Of course they can get the pickers. But unionised ones want a decent wage. The thing is, the greedy gits won't pay a decent wage and therein lies the crux of it. The bad farms used Eastern Europeans as a way to bypass the unions and pay slave wages. Now they're sulking (I say fuck em). You are so missing the point. Brexit has left our strategically vital farms still competing against low wage farms overseas but now without access to same low wage labour or the country able to have priority access to food. You must be so proud on leaving us strategically weakened and our farmers in trouble.. |
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Post by vinny on May 21, 2024 10:38:41 GMT
No.
The point is the CAP is crap.
Subsidise those who need subsidy, don't subsidise those who don't need subsidy, pay decent wages to workers and look after the environment.
And you missed the point.
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Steve
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Post by Steve on May 21, 2024 10:46:06 GMT
No. The point is the CAP is crap. Subsidise those who need subsidy, don't subsidise those who don't need subsidy, pay decent wages to workers and look after the environment. And you missed the point. The CAP was never about delivering some socialist levelling, it was about ensuring Europe had a strategically vital supply of food. We signed out of that and now can't afford to replace its benefits for the UK. |
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Post by vinny on May 21, 2024 11:04:27 GMT
The CAP is a monumentally inefficient waste of cash, it doesn't work.
And the food mountains it produces often get dumped into the developed world, impacting farming there.
We are overpopulated, there isn't enough farmland in our country to feed everyone, even with total subsidy of farming.
We need imports, and we now have a better way of importing.
The Commonwealth offers the best way to meet our strategic food needs.
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