Saint
Observer
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Rwanda
May 4, 2024 13:27:45 GMT
Post by Saint on May 4, 2024 13:27:45 GMT
I'm not entirely sure why it would matter whether the UK is 'a safe country' for the purposes of deporting migrants from Ireland. Ireland is a signatory of the Refugee Convention. If they are genuine refugees, they have a right to choose their country of application, don't they? What would be the legal basis for Ireland's returning them to the UK even if they were satisfied that the UK is a 'safe country'?
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Steve
Hero Protagonist
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Rwanda
May 4, 2024 15:15:04 GMT
Post by Steve on May 4, 2024 15:15:04 GMT
I'm not entirely sure why it would matter whether the UK is 'a safe country' for the purposes of deporting migrants from Ireland. Ireland is a signatory of the Refugee Convention. If they are genuine refugees, they have a right to choose their country of application, don't they? What would be the legal basis for Ireland's returning them to the UK even if they were satisfied that the UK is a 'safe country'? All the time they are a refugee maybe but once they are in a safe country then they're no longer a refugee
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Saint
Observer
Posts: 1,169
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Rwanda
May 4, 2024 15:20:32 GMT
Post by Saint on May 4, 2024 15:20:32 GMT
I'm not entirely sure why it would matter whether the UK is 'a safe country' for the purposes of deporting migrants from Ireland. Ireland is a signatory of the Refugee Convention. If they are genuine refugees, they have a right to choose their country of application, don't they? What would be the legal basis for Ireland's returning them to the UK even if they were satisfied that the UK is a 'safe country'? All the time they are a refugee maybe but once they are in a safe country then they're no longer a refugee I'm no expert, but I thought applications had to be considered by any signatory country a refugee managed to reach.
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Rwanda
May 4, 2024 15:24:04 GMT
Post by Zany on May 4, 2024 15:24:04 GMT
You misunderstand me Steve. I was saying the Uk would need to break away from the ECtHR or back down and reverse decisions. Or just behave like a government should, honestly We are discussing THIS government?
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Rwanda
May 4, 2024 15:25:12 GMT
Post by Zany on May 4, 2024 15:25:12 GMT
I'm not entirely sure why it would matter whether the UK is 'a safe country' for the purposes of deporting migrants from Ireland. Ireland is a signatory of the Refugee Convention. If they are genuine refugees, they have a right to choose their country of application, don't they? What would be the legal basis for Ireland's returning them to the UK even if they were satisfied that the UK is a 'safe country'? Good point.
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Steve
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Rwanda
May 4, 2024 15:26:17 GMT
Post by Steve on May 4, 2024 15:26:17 GMT
Yes the one that tried to irreversibly deport people to Rwanda while their fair (and later upheld) appeals were still being considered. The ECtHR rightly said that wasn't due process of law.
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Rwanda
May 4, 2024 15:28:39 GMT
Post by Zany on May 4, 2024 15:28:39 GMT
I'm not entirely sure why it would matter whether the UK is 'a safe country' for the purposes of deporting migrants from Ireland. Ireland is a signatory of the Refugee Convention. If they are genuine refugees, they have a right to choose their country of application, don't they? What would be the legal basis for Ireland's returning them to the UK even if they were satisfied that the UK is a 'safe country'? All the time they are a refugee maybe but once they are in a safe country then they're no longer a refugee Hmm. I think you remain a refugee until someone agrees to take you in. Simply being in a safe country does not mean you are not a person who has been forced to leave their country in order to escape war, persecution, or natural disaster.
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Steve
Hero Protagonist
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Rwanda
May 4, 2024 15:29:01 GMT
Post by Steve on May 4, 2024 15:29:01 GMT
Or just behave like a government should, honestly We are discussing THIS government? Depends how you read the rules. France routinely refuses asylum because they have come through a safe country (usually Germany) IMHO once you're in a safe country you're no longer a refugee under the conventions. Try to then hop to another safe country you are by default an economic migrant
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Rwanda
May 4, 2024 15:29:37 GMT
Post by Zany on May 4, 2024 15:29:37 GMT
Yes the one that tried to irreversibly deport people to Rwanda while their fair (and later upheld) appeals were still being considered. The ECtHR rightly said that wasn't due process of law. Just wanted to be sure we were day dreaming
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Rwanda
May 4, 2024 15:42:42 GMT
Post by Zany on May 4, 2024 15:42:42 GMT
We are discussing THIS government? Depends how you read the rules. France routinely refuses asylum because they have come through a safe country (usually Germany) IMHO once you're in a safe country you're no longer a refugee under the conventions. Try to then hop to another safe country you are by default an economic migrant So if I flee persecution in England and manage to reach France, I can happily freeze or starve to death because I'm no longer a refugee?
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Rwanda
May 4, 2024 16:07:58 GMT
Post by equivocal on May 4, 2024 16:07:58 GMT
I'm not entirely sure why it would matter whether the UK is 'a safe country' for the purposes of deporting migrants from Ireland. Ireland is a signatory of the Refugee Convention. If they are genuine refugees, they have a right to choose their country of application, don't they? What would be the legal basis for Ireland's returning them to the UK even if they were satisfied that the UK is a 'safe country'? From what I've read there is an agreement between the UK and Ireland (2020) which replaced the Dublin Agreement(s).
I believe Dublin and I guess the new agreement provide that the country in which the refugee presents to the authorities deals with the asylum claim. I don't think Dublin has been found unlawful anywhere, so I'm guessing the last resort of a refugee who has already presented in the UK is to challenge the return from Ireland on the safe country basis.
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Saint
Observer
Posts: 1,169
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Rwanda
May 4, 2024 17:11:18 GMT
Post by Saint on May 4, 2024 17:11:18 GMT
I'm not entirely sure why it would matter whether the UK is 'a safe country' for the purposes of deporting migrants from Ireland. Ireland is a signatory of the Refugee Convention. If they are genuine refugees, they have a right to choose their country of application, don't they? What would be the legal basis for Ireland's returning them to the UK even if they were satisfied that the UK is a 'safe country'? From what I've read there is an agreement between the UK and Ireland (2020) which replaced the Dublin Agreement(s).
I believe Dublin and I guess the new agreement provide that the country in which the refugee presents to the authorities deals with the asylum claim. I don't think Dublin has been found unlawful anywhere, so I'm guessing the last resort of a refugee who has already presented in the UK is to challenge the return from Ireland on the safe country basis.
Cheers. Doesn't the Dublin Agreement itself breach the Refugee Convention? Perhaps, you're suggesting it might when you say that it hasn't been found unlawful anywhere.
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Post by equivocal on May 4, 2024 17:23:24 GMT
From what I've read there is an agreement between the UK and Ireland (2020) which replaced the Dublin Agreement(s).
I believe Dublin and I guess the new agreement provide that the country in which the refugee presents to the authorities deals with the asylum claim. I don't think Dublin has been found unlawful anywhere, so I'm guessing the last resort of a refugee who has already presented in the UK is to challenge the return from Ireland on the safe country basis.
Cheers. Doesn't the Dublin Agreement itself breach the Refugee Convention? Perhaps, you're suggesting it might when you say that it hasn't been found lawful anywhere. I don't know and I don't know if it has been challenged. From the perspective of potential returnees from Ireland the Safe Country basis appears to be, in comparison to a qua Dublin Agreement challenge, low hanging fruit.
But, as I said, I'm guessing because I don't know where the Ireland/UK agreement is to be found. Not that it would matter to the chancers running the UK at the moment.
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Steve
Hero Protagonist
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Rwanda
May 4, 2024 17:53:34 GMT
Post by Steve on May 4, 2024 17:53:34 GMT
Depends how you read the rules. France routinely refuses asylum because they have come through a safe country (usually Germany) IMHO once you're in a safe country you're no longer a refugee under the conventions. Try to then hop to another safe country you are by default an economic migrant So if I flee persecution in England and manage to reach France, I can happily freeze or starve to death because I'm no longer a refugee? Not if you were fleeing real refugee level persecution in England.
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Saint
Observer
Posts: 1,169
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Rwanda
May 4, 2024 18:41:34 GMT
Post by Saint on May 4, 2024 18:41:34 GMT
Cheers. Doesn't the Dublin Agreement itself breach the Refugee Convention? Perhaps, you're suggesting it might when you say that it hasn't been found lawful anywhere. I don't know and I don't know if it has been challenged. From the perspective of potential returnees from Ireland the Safe Country basis appears to be, in comparison to a qua Dublin Agreement challenge, low hanging fruit.
But, as I said, I'm guessing because I don't know where the Ireland/UK agreement is to be found. Not that it would matter to the chancers running the UK at the moment.
Cheers again. It seems there is a return agreement between the UK and Ireland, but, according to to the government, it is not legally binding. ukandeu.ac.uk/does-the-uks-rwanda-policy-risk-the-uk-ireland-relationship/
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