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Post by wapentake on Sept 14, 2024 20:34:51 GMT
MI5 covers domestic threats does it not the threats from across the world come under the remit of MI6 don’t they? Can you reveal how many are outside the UK? Mi5 cover domestic threats but that doesn't mean they don't watch threats from around the world MI5 investigates all types of terrorist threats to the UK, including Islamist, extreme right-wing, and Northern Ireland-related terrorism. MI5 also works to disrupt terrorist threats against UK interests overseas I have already stated that no one keeps this information by race or religion, so the answer is obviously NO.
So though you are not dappy you did like and support his posts and given that there are no figures available then the assertion that migrants do not commit more crime cannot be referenced and neither can mine that they were significant which you translated to higher though that’s not what I said. Tbh my initial post has been largely ignored and I think only Borgr0 had any understanding of what I was actually saying,though that is pure supposition since I haven’t spoken to him.
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Post by MrBenn on Sept 14, 2024 21:04:14 GMT
I have no time this evening to engage in lengthy debates or tit for tats.
So I will simply make the following point. Absence of evidence that crime is not more prevalent amongst migrants is not evidence that it is.
To say that any particular group contains more criminals than other groups does not become fact because no one has proven otherwise. Any pejorative assumption such as that itself needs evidence before we can ever accept it is fact in the first place..
If I say that Zany is a satanist, it does not immediately become a fact until someone disproves it. The onus would be on me to prove it.
Likewise saying anything negative about migrants or any other groups, The onus is on the person saying these things to prove it, not the rest of us to disprove it.
Innocent until proven guilty in other words.
Otherwise it is simply a case of talking shit.
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Post by Zany on Sept 14, 2024 21:13:34 GMT
Mi5 cover domestic threats but that doesn't mean they don't watch threats from around the world MI5 investigates all types of terrorist threats to the UK, including Islamist, extreme right-wing, and Northern Ireland-related terrorism. MI5 also works to disrupt terrorist threats against UK interests overseas I have already stated that no one keeps this information by race or religion, so the answer is obviously NO.
So though you are not dappy you did like and support his posts and given that there are no figures available then the assertion that migrants do not commit more crime cannot be referenced and neither can mine that they were significant which you translated to higher though that’s not what I said. Tbh my initial post has been largely ignored and I think only Borgr0 had any understanding of what I was actually saying,though that is pure supposition since I haven’t spoken to him. I certainly did not! I am no fan of Dappy or his opinions.
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Post by wapentake on Sept 14, 2024 21:14:53 GMT
So though you are not dappy you did like and support his posts and given that there are no figures available then the assertion that migrants do not commit more crime cannot be referenced and neither can mine that they were significant which you translated to higher though that’s not what I said. Tbh my initial post has been largely ignored and I think only Borgr0 had any understanding of what I was actually saying,though that is pure supposition since I haven’t spoken to him. I certainly did not! I am no fan of Dappy or his opinions. Then my apologies
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Post by wapentake on Sept 14, 2024 21:16:36 GMT
I have no time this evening to engage in lengthy debates or tit for tats. So I will simply make the following point. Absence of evidence that crime is not more prevalent amongst migrants is not evidence that it is. To say that any particular group contains more criminals than other groups does not become fact because no one has proven otherwise. Any pejorative assumption such as that itself needs evidence before we can ever accept it is fact in the first place.. If I say that Zany is a satanist, it does not immediately become a fact until someone disproves it. The onus would be on me to prove it. Likewise saying anything negative about migrants or any other groups, The onus is on the person saying these things to prove it, not the rest of us to disprove it. Innocent until proven guilty in other words. Otherwise it is simply a case of talking shit. Read my reply again that’s what I said
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Post by MrBenn on Sept 15, 2024 7:25:39 GMT
I have no time this evening to engage in lengthy debates or tit for tats. So I will simply make the following point. Absence of evidence that crime is not more prevalent amongst migrants is not evidence that it is. To say that any particular group contains more criminals than other groups does not become fact because no one has proven otherwise. Any pejorative assumption such as that itself needs evidence before we can ever accept it is fact in the first place.. If I say that Zany is a satanist, it does not immediately become a fact until someone disproves it. The onus would be on me to prove it. Likewise saying anything negative about migrants or any other groups, The onus is on the person saying these things to prove it, not the rest of us to disprove it. Innocent until proven guilty in other words. Otherwise it is simply a case of talking shit. Read my reply again that’s what I said Sorry if I misunderstood you....I was reading then responding in a rush yesterday.....and have little time to say much more now. No time to check it out now but it did seem in some of your earlier posts that you were putting forward the assumption that migrants commit more crime without evidence. If you retreated from that position later then fair enough. It is however the kind of assumption that would have been taken as fact in certain other forums, where there are many rightwingers who just assume something to be true because they like to believe it or have read it in some rag or other. Un-evidenced assumptions tend to be challenged much more on this forum. One reason I like it here, even if it can be annoying if ever I am putting out an un-evidenced assumption of my own/ Because that can sometimes feel like I am being asked to provide evidence for the blindingly obvious, lol. But it is generally a good thing. Have a good day, anyway. Am off to work again now.
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Post by wapentake on Sept 15, 2024 8:17:39 GMT
Read my reply again that’s what I said Sorry if I misunderstood you....I was reading then responding in a rush yesterday.....and have little time to say much more now. No time to check it out now but it did seem in some of your earlier posts that you were putting forward the assumption that migrants commit more crime without evidence. If you retreated from that position later then fair enough. It is however the kind of assumption that would have been taken as fact in certain other forums, where there are many rightwingers who just assume something to be true because they like to believe it or have read it in some rag or other. Un-evidenced assumptions tend to be challenged much more on this forum. One reason I like it here, even if it can be annoying if ever I am putting out an un-evidenced assumption of my own/ Because that can sometimes feel like I am being asked to provide evidence for the blindingly obvious, lol. But it is generally a good thing. Have a good day, anyway. Am off to work again now. And you too . Anyway Steve please read my op and tell me what you think I was really saying.
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Post by MrBenn on Sept 15, 2024 17:54:00 GMT
Sorry if I misunderstood you....I was reading then responding in a rush yesterday.....and have little time to say much more now. No time to check it out now but it did seem in some of your earlier posts that you were putting forward the assumption that migrants commit more crime without evidence. If you retreated from that position later then fair enough. It is however the kind of assumption that would have been taken as fact in certain other forums, where there are many rightwingers who just assume something to be true because they like to believe it or have read it in some rag or other. Un-evidenced assumptions tend to be challenged much more on this forum. One reason I like it here, even if it can be annoying if ever I am putting out an un-evidenced assumption of my own/ Because that can sometimes feel like I am being asked to provide evidence for the blindingly obvious, lol. But it is generally a good thing. Have a good day, anyway. Am off to work again now. And you too . Anyway Steve please read my op and tell me what you think I was really saying. I have not re read the entire thread but have looked at most of the first two pages. At one point early on you referenced another thread where someone talked of undesirables joining a forum. This appears to have been misunderstood to mean you referring to undesirables entering the country. There will always be a few of the latter of course but there is no evidence whatsoever that the proportion of immigrants who are bad people is any higher than amongst the indigenous population. But since that does not appear to be the point you were trying to make, I will address the one you were actually making. Yes, any forum is prone to have undesirables trying to join it, which is why we need mods who ultimately have the power to ban. How such undesirables are defined can vary from forum to forum, but almost every forum will not tolerate constant trolling, gross personal abuse, malicious and false accusations, trying to compromise someone's anonymity with the aim of causing them harm in real life, peddling hate with constant racist language, and stuff like that. More generally, one other forum I used to frequent very similar to this one (not the one you moderate) contain people who constantly went in for personal attacks and rarely ever made much in the way of valid points. I doubt whether that would be tolerated for long here. On the same forum there was almost a chuckle brothers double act going on sometimes, with one of them posting utter gibberish, and the other then posting "Indeed" in response to it. Made me laugh every time. But this forum tries hard to populate itself by people who post intelligently and logically and who play the ball rather than the man. I cross that line myself when riled as you will recall from another site because I don't suffer fools and liars lightly, and if I think someone is being either or both I will say so. A weakness of mine which frequently gets me into trouble and which I need to try much harder to work on. I also sometimes have a sarcastic streak but unleashing it does nothing to improve the quality of the debate and just riles people to no constructive purpose. But recognising your own faults is a lot easier than addressing them, especially if you have a progressive medical condition that makes you prone to violent mood swings as I have. But I will try.
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Post by dappy on Sept 16, 2024 20:57:42 GMT
Back from my trip away and time to eat a little humble pie I’m afraid. Sometimes we all get things wrong and this time it’s my turn. I know culture on forums when this happens is to twist and turn and deny but honestly I prefer to be upfront and honest. I was wrong.
In truth I am a little perplexed because I could have sworn that I had read that the statistics showed that asylum seekers commit significantly less crimes per head than the general population but the only analysis I can find suggests that the figures are broadly equal and even that was 10 years ago so may not be accurate. I was wrong.
Worth saying that there is no evidence at all to suggest that they commit more crime as Wapentake suggested or indeed any evidence for any of his other suggestions on this thread.
Humble pie duly eaten, I can only apologize for my genuine error here.
By the way couple of other points 1) Wapentake would in my view be very welcome to post here regularly but please if you do could you change your posting style a little so your point is clear as is your evidence ( if factual rather than opinion) 2) Mr Benn is IMHO arguably the best poster here. Stop bloody apologising for what you are. You are just fine as is.
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