Steve
Hero Protagonist
Posts: 2,556
Member is Online
|
Post by Steve on Jul 12, 2024 9:47:30 GMT
Corbyn clearly had an effect on confidence in the Labour party. How so? Are we forgetting the damage done to the party under the Blair /brown years , the milliband years , and from what I remember the only labour leader to take more votes than Corbyn did in 2017 was Blair in 1997 , never again to be matched. ok. That was the implication to me from your post , hence the question. Whatever problems Corbyn did or did not cause labour in the past are clearly nothing to do with starmers lacklustre election victory . Of course they are. Did you never see the 'vote Starmer get Corbyn' comments?
|
|
|
Post by patman post on Jul 12, 2024 9:50:37 GMT
I doubt the low turnout was due to the UK’s current voting system — which was thought OK when an alternative PR system was rejected in a 2011 referendum. The lack of interest in voting last week seems to have been due to disillusion with parliamentary politics. And of those votes cast, it wouldn’t surprise me if many (if not most) were protest votes in a general Anyone But Conservative groundswell… you doubt? Do you have proof of what caused the low turnout , or is this just personal thoughts on the matter , as valid as anyone else's? the 2011 AV referendum wasn't an endorsement of fptp , merely a rejection of Av , which even nick Clegg called a grubby little compromise. possibly , but if the system is geared up to endorsing two parties voters are fed up with , it follows that people won't turn out to vote. Who disagrees? The point is 80 % of the electorate didnt want labour either. As you say, “Who disagrees?” My opinion is based on listening to and reading about opinion surveys, and I did not notice that anyone in those, listed the current voting system as a reason for voting as they intended to, or voting or not voting. So you are perceptive — my opinion is based on listening to the opinions expressed by others. However, you’re the first I’ve noticed citing Nick Clegg for support for anything What I did gather was that “none of the above” was no longer just a trite remark, but a feeling that was gaining momentum…
|
|
|
Post by Amadan on Jul 12, 2024 10:21:23 GMT
labour gained most seats in scotland as you know , yet the polls were forecasting labour and snp neck and neck. So im not sure the media telling Scots that the GE was a foregone conclusion for labour thus dont bother voting was an argument for what happened here. I thought this was the second lowest turnout on record ( need I repeat since universal suffrage) but it does appear it was the lowest , certainly in scotland which beat the 2001 record of 58 % of adults turning out , 2024 scotland was down to an all time low of 54% of adults. I think you are correct though in there being multiple reason , I dont agree though with pats attempt to brush off the problems of the dodgy British electoral system. The dodgy FPTP two party stitch up is a clear and growing problem , with many voicing deep concern. We are in a multi party system with an out of date electoral system that cannot cope , deliberately or otherwise. No country in the western world that I can see has such a disproportionate result in modern history , giving a party double the seats comparable to its vote share. Surely time to bring England into line with the rest of us in Europe , with at least matching the devolved system , if not going further in terms of PR? The seat/percentage disparity certainly suggests the need for change. I haven't looked at a cross section of nations employing the various systems in terms of turnout, so I don't really have an opinion on how a change might have affected turnout. Similarly, with a different system, it's hard to predict how the result might have been affected. I think, though, it's fair to say a mandate derived from some form of PR or AV would have more 'legitimacy'.
I imagine that the various difficulties recently encountered by the SNP would have had the effect of supressing turnover with many independence supporters feeling unable to vote for the party. That, I suppose, is a bit of a double whammy for independence supporters with, at least as I see it, a Labour Government being less unpopular in Scotland than the Tory alternative.
what do you mean nations employing various systems? The turnout was universally down across all three nations and the province? Record low uk wide , and scotland , not sure about Wales or non ireland. Labour clearly win when you stay at home appears to be the mantra. sure. They lost half a million voters , who by and large appear to have stayed at home , sending the snp a message they aren't happy in an election that was safe to do so , primarily a de facto English election. The whole of scotland could have voted tory , snp or reform and it would not have mattered a jot to the result of Englands general election in terms of labour being elected. How so ? Savanta polled Scots and found 12 % only wanted a labour government. The collapse in the snp vote had nothing to do with English politics at Westminster , but was an internal Scottish matter due to gripes with the snp governance , failure to further independence , and identity politics .
|
|
|
Post by Amadan on Jul 12, 2024 10:22:53 GMT
How so? Are we forgetting the damage done to the party under the Blair /brown years , the milliband years , and from what I remember the only labour leader to take more votes than Corbyn did in 2017 was Blair in 1997 , never again to be matched. ok. That was the implication to me from your post , hence the question. Whatever problems Corbyn did or did not cause labour in the past are clearly nothing to do with starmers lacklustre election victory . Of course they are. Did you never see the 'vote Starmer get Corbyn' comments? No. Did it make any difference to the result?
|
|
|
Post by Amadan on Jul 12, 2024 10:25:51 GMT
you doubt? Do you have proof of what caused the low turnout , or is this just personal thoughts on the matter , as valid as anyone else's? the 2011 AV referendum wasn't an endorsement of fptp , merely a rejection of Av , which even nick Clegg called a grubby little compromise. possibly , but if the system is geared up to endorsing two parties voters are fed up with , it follows that people won't turn out to vote. Who disagrees? The point is 80 % of the electorate didnt want labour either. As you say, “Who disagrees?” My opinion is based on listening to and reading about opinion surveys, and I did not notice that anyone in those, listed the current voting system as a reason for voting as they intended to, or voting or not voting. So you are perceptive — my opinion is based on listening to the opinions expressed by others. However, you’re the first I’ve noticed citing Nick Clegg for support for anything What I did gather was that “none of the above” was no longer just a trite remark, but a feeling that was gaining momentum… so you say you dont disagree the vast majority didnt want either labour or conservative , but that's what the system served up anyway , but you appear to imply we must stick therefore with the status quo in place? Ive been listening too and reading pieces , and there appears to be a cry for reform of the uk electoral system. I posted a few articles on the subject. Where's your links saying people think fptp is all fine and dandy?
|
|
|
Post by equivocal on Jul 12, 2024 10:31:03 GMT
The seat/percentage disparity certainly suggests the need for change. I haven't looked at a cross section of nations employing the various systems in terms of turnout, so I don't really have an opinion on how a change might have affected turnout. Similarly, with a different system, it's hard to predict how the result might have been affected. I think, though, it's fair to say a mandate derived from some form of PR or AV would have more 'legitimacy'.
I imagine that the various difficulties recently encountered by the SNP would have had the effect of supressing turnover with many independence supporters feeling unable to vote for the party. That, I suppose, is a bit of a double whammy for independence supporters with, at least as I see it, a Labour Government being less unpopular in Scotland than the Tory alternative.
I mean different nation states employing different systems. My remark was drawing attention to another reason for the low turnout in Scotland. I said less unpopular. What was the Savanta result for the Tories?
|
|
|
Post by Amadan on Jul 12, 2024 10:38:05 GMT
I mean different nation states employing different systems. My remark was drawing attention to another reason for the low turnout in Scotland. I said less unpopular. What was the Savanta result for the Tories? sorry im confused. We are talking about a uk general election result , and its consequences , and it was all done under the same system. Perhaps im being slow this morning , it's my day off. Need more coffee. I think we can agree there are many reasons for the low turnout in scotland, but what do you think is the universal link regarding low turnout out on all the the uk countries and regions? Is this applicable to the debate for a party that has never won an election in scotland in history , and you have to go back to 1955 to find a win for their old sister party , nearly 70 years ago? Everybody is less unpopular in scotland than the tories.
|
|
|
Post by patman post on Jul 12, 2024 11:02:15 GMT
As you say, “Who disagrees?” My opinion is based on listening to and reading about opinion surveys, and I did not notice that anyone in those, listed the current voting system as a reason for voting as they intended to, or voting or not voting. So you are perceptive — my opinion is based on listening to the opinions expressed by others. However, you’re the first I’ve noticed citing Nick Clegg for support for anything What I did gather was that “none of the above” was no longer just a trite remark, but a feeling that was gaining momentum… so you say you dont disagree the vast majority didnt want either labour or conservative , but that's what the system served up anyway , but you appear to imply we must stick therefore with the status quo in place? Ive been listening too and reading pieces , and there appears to be a cry for reform of the uk electoral system. I posted a few articles on the subject. Where's your links saying people think fptp is all fine and dandy? Apologies, I can't summon up pre-election evidence — from what I was listening to and reading — of people not complaining.
I admit I prefer being able to vote for the person I'd like to represent me in parliament, and not have my vote allocated to someone on a list — and looking at the way the Labour government quickly swung into action after last Thursday's election, I bet some nations struggling with PR ciunts and coalitions must envy the UK.
After most recent parliamentary elections, hasn't it been usual for losing party-supporters complain about the first past the post...?
|
|
|
Post by Amadan on Jul 12, 2024 11:26:17 GMT
so you say you dont disagree the vast majority didnt want either labour or conservative , but that's what the system served up anyway , but you appear to imply we must stick therefore with the status quo in place? Ive been listening too and reading pieces , and there appears to be a cry for reform of the uk electoral system. I posted a few articles on the subject. Where's your links saying people think fptp is all fine and dandy? Apologies, I can't summon up pre-election evidence — from what I was listening to and reading — of people not complaining.
so people not complaining ( they are , and ive posted links to it , ) allegedly , and people not turning out in the lowest turn out in recorded history for a general election is a sign of all is fine and dandy south of the Watford gap. Right ho pat. Apologies. Clearly nothing to see here , lets move on.
|
|
|
Post by Amadan on Jul 12, 2024 11:27:20 GMT
so you say you dont disagree the vast majority didnt want either labour or conservative , but that's what the system served up anyway , but you appear to imply we must stick therefore with the status quo in place? Ive been listening too and reading pieces , and there appears to be a cry for reform of the uk electoral system. I posted a few articles on the subject. Where's your links saying people think fptp is all fine and dandy?
After most recent parliamentary elections, hasn't it been usual for losing party-supporters complain about the first past the post...? nope . Evidence ? or is this just more personal musings?
|
|
|
Post by Amadan on Jul 12, 2024 11:30:48 GMT
so you say you dont disagree the vast majority didnt want either labour or conservative , but that's what the system served up anyway , but you appear to imply we must stick therefore with the status quo in place? Ive been listening too and reading pieces , and there appears to be a cry for reform of the uk electoral system. I posted a few articles on the subject. Where's your links saying people think fptp is all fine and dandy?
I admit I prefer being able to vote for the person I'd like to represent me in parliament, and not have my vote allocated to someone on a list — and looking at the way the Labour government quickly swung into action after last Thursday's election, I bet some nations struggling with PR ciunts and coalitions must envy the UK.
the majority of the world uses forms of PR for voting. Certainly in the western world. Can you give me evidence of countries who use pr , that look on in envy at the uk and want to see governments with a third of the vote get two thirds of seats? if you can't , we can dismiss your latest personal musing as nothing more than unsubstantiated nonsense , and cast it into the bin along with all the other stuff you regularly come out with.
|
|
|
Post by patman post on Jul 12, 2024 11:50:58 GMT
After most recent parliamentary elections, hasn't it been usual for losing party-supporters complain about the first past the post...? nope . Evidence ? or is this just more personal musings? As you seem deliberately unable to understand what I post, I shall leave you to play with yourself...
|
|
|
Post by Amadan on Jul 12, 2024 12:04:51 GMT
nope . Evidence ? or is this just more personal musings? As you seem deliberately unable to understand what I post, I shall leave you to play with yourself... ah ok. I dont understand your repeated turd polishing, with your personal musings to back it up? Try not to be rude, if you can. Thanks.
|
|
|
Post by Amadan on Jul 12, 2024 12:10:25 GMT
Now the level of debate has soared that far above my meagre understanding pat is on another plane , its back to reality , and the complaints about the uks dodgy electoral system. rather , as pat likes to imply , griping coming from routed tories in England , or surly nationalists in scotland , merely griping about losing. , this article is from the former labour leader , himself a winner in this election in pats back yard , routing the labour candidate In the process , and who of course in two general elections got far more than starmers "winning vote" in this election . www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/jul/12/people-power-re-election-new-politics-jeremy-corbyn
|
|
borgr0
Observer
+++
Posts: 1,188
|
Post by borgr0 on Jul 12, 2024 16:05:23 GMT
The usual excuses for why Labour are the best thing since sliced bread and everyone else is wrong..
Don'tcha just love it?
|
|