Steve
Hero Protagonist
Posts: 2,556
|
Post by Steve on Jul 30, 2024 21:55:36 GMT
So according to you cannabis being illegal hasn't stopped a single person ever anywhere taking it. Dream on Speaking informed truth to ignorance is so reminiscent of the other forum. What experience on the ground do you have? And I don't mean shit you read in the papers. In my experience it never stopped anyone who wanted it from getting it for long. You telling me to dream on when I speak from experience and you clearly don't, is reminiscent of a debate with Jonksy. It is like trying to bring facts informed by personal experience to someone who insists on believing what he is emotively driven to believe based upon no personal experience at all. People like you kidding yourself that the law actually works when most of us know it doesnt are an obstacle to intelligent and informed debate, let alone pragmatic change that can reduce the harm. Cannabis dealers love people like you. You make sure they stay in business, lol. I suggest we desist from this debate. If you insist on believing stuff that demonstrably isnt true informed by no experience at all, nor by any apparent supporting evidence for your contention that the law is effective at stopping many people from smoking cannabis - and ignore the facts being presented to you by someone talking from experience, this debate between us is pointless. If I want that kind of debate I'll go and find Jonksy. And even if a handful of people here and there choose not to smoke the stuff because of the law, that hardly counteracts all the additional bad effects illegality causes society, including drug gangs and street violence by these gangs, no control whatsoever on the strength of what is sold, no means whatsoever of preventing kids from buying it, the very ones most susceptible to being harmed by it, as well as being the factor that makes it a gateway drug by insuring that it's supply is in the hands of the same people selling much more harmful drugs. If you cannot understand all that logically because you cannot get beyond your own kneejerk emoting on this subject, that's your problem. I have better things to do with my time than making it mine. No you've made a very big assertion that not one person has ever anywhere been deterred from drug use by its illegality. And when challenged on that have started making personal sleights. Seeing as how I doubt you've been everywhere, all the time, checking on everybody and can offer no objective evidence to back your assertion it is so obviously hyperbole ie false. And serious topics deserve better than that.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2024 22:03:27 GMT
Everyone I have ever met who has ever wanted to smoke cannabis has never in my experience suddenly had the thought that they had better not after all because it is against the law. Instead they have usually rather easily and quickly found out where to get it, and gone off somewhere and smoked the damned shit. If they think about the law at all, most often they just think it's an ass for its obvious inconsistency.
|
|
Steve
Hero Protagonist
Posts: 2,556
|
Post by Steve on Jul 30, 2024 22:13:45 GMT
Everyone I have ever met who has ever wanted to smoke cannabis has never in my experience suddenly had the thought that they had better not after all because it is against the law. Instead they have usually rather easily and quickly found out where to get it, and gone off somewhere and smoked the damned shit. If they think about the law at all, most often they just think it's an ass for its obvious inconsistency. But you have not met everybody have you. And one person's view of 'everyone they have ever met' is never going to be an objective representation of all is it? Less than 3% of people in the UK take cannabis even once a month, it's illegal status has to be a factor in why 97% of people don't use it. publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld199798/ldselect/ldsctech/151/15108.htm
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2024 22:18:36 GMT
Speaking informed truth to ignorance is so reminiscent of the other forum. What experience on the ground do you have? And I don't mean shit you read in the papers. In my experience it never stopped anyone who wanted it from getting it for long. You telling me to dream on when I speak from experience and you clearly don't, is reminiscent of a debate with Jonksy. It is like trying to bring facts informed by personal experience to someone who insists on believing what he is emotively driven to believe based upon no personal experience at all. People like you kidding yourself that the law actually works when most of us know it doesnt are an obstacle to intelligent and informed debate, let alone pragmatic change that can reduce the harm. Cannabis dealers love people like you. You make sure they stay in business, lol. I suggest we desist from this debate. If you insist on believing stuff that demonstrably isnt true informed by no experience at all, nor by any apparent supporting evidence for your contention that the law is effective at stopping many people from smoking cannabis - and ignore the facts being presented to you by someone talking from experience, this debate between us is pointless. If I want that kind of debate I'll go and find Jonksy. And even if a handful of people here and there choose not to smoke the stuff because of the law, that hardly counteracts all the additional bad effects illegality causes society, including drug gangs and street violence by these gangs, no control whatsoever on the strength of what is sold, no means whatsoever of preventing kids from buying it, the very ones most susceptible to being harmed by it, as well as being the factor that makes it a gateway drug by insuring that it's supply is in the hands of the same people selling much more harmful drugs. If you cannot understand all that logically because you cannot get beyond your own kneejerk emoting on this subject, that's your problem. I have better things to do with my time than making it mine. No you've made a very big assertion that not one person has ever anywhere been deterred from drug use by its illegality. And when challenged on that have started making personal sleights. Seeing as how I doubt you've been everywhere, all the time, checking on everybody and can offer no objective evidence to back your assertion it is so obviously hyperbole ie false. And serious topics deserve better than that. I bring knowledge informed by personal experience to the table. You clearly don't. And it is not like you. You clearly have a lot of emotional investment in the effectiveness of the law on this, as well as in the notion that cannabis is a terrible evil. I think the facts are rather different. Cannabis is undoubtedly harmful but the law is largely ineffective at stopping it. We need to use our heads and accept that prohibition does not work and never has - America tried it with alcohol - unless the prohibition carries large majority support and is seen as consistent. Which prohibition of cannabis doesnt and isnt. Which is why its continued illegality does far more harm than good and drives a horse and cart through public perception of the sense of anti-drug laws. And do you - or have you ever - become intoxicated on alcohol whilst defending it's continued legality? Because if so you have the same apparent logical blind spot to many stick in the muds on this subject by being utterly incapable of recognising, let alone acknowledging, your own brazen hypocrisy on this subject. We are very close to falling out over this one it seems so in the interests of the respect we have for each other on every other topic, I think we should maybe just agree to differ. But if the last word matters to you, feel free....I don't intend to respond to you further on this topic in the interests of mutual goodwill
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2024 22:25:12 GMT
Everyone I have ever met who has ever wanted to smoke cannabis has never in my experience suddenly had the thought that they had better not after all because it is against the law. Instead they have usually rather easily and quickly found out where to get it, and gone off somewhere and smoked the damned shit. If they think about the law at all, most often they just think it's an ass for its obvious inconsistency. Less than 3% of people in the UK take cannabis even once a month, it's illegal status has to be a factor in why 97% of people don't use i An assumption not borne out by any actual evidence or personal experience. Most people who decide not to smoke cannabis make that decision without reference to the law. And I dispute the idea that cannabis use is as low as that because it sure isn't around here, lol. Though a lot would never admit it in surveys, lol. Anyway, already I have broken my promise not to debate this further, and if I allow myself to get sufficiently wound up am liable to flounce off again and probably not return. So I need to leave this debate for my own good.
|
|
Steve
Hero Protagonist
Posts: 2,556
|
Post by Steve on Jul 30, 2024 22:25:45 GMT
I suggest don't be the first to use and continue to use personal sleights next time we disagree.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2024 22:59:32 GMT
I suggest don't be the first to use and continue to use personal sleights next time we disagree. You are not Jonksy so I apologise. I do see you as rather ill informed on this subject, largely because I have been in the cannabis scene from the inside and you haven't as far as I can tell. You seem obviously ill informed on the subject from my perspective which you fail to realise or see. I do accept that drug use of all kinds as well as excessive use of alcohol has declined amongst younger generations compared to my day, though this has next to nothing to do with the law which is barely even enforced anymore. It has much more to do with the boredom factor. In my day there wasn't a great deal for young people to do especially when the weather was crap and a lot of us found our way to the pub and to drug use out of boredom more than anything. Today the internet has filled the boredom gap that drove many of us to get off our faces for fun, so less find their way to excessive use of any kind of intoxicant today. I notice how many of the young people I work with are far less prone to getting slaughtered every weekend night than we were. Drug use of any kind is less widespread amongst the young now because the internet keeps most of them from getting bored. I do however believe that for the law on intoxicants to make sense it needs to be consistent. It can remain so if harder intoxicants than alcohol or cannabis remain illegal, simply because even most people who have used them recognise them to be harder drugs. But that doesn't work with cannabis which is widely seen as less harmful or at worst no more harmful than alcohol. So those who themselves enjoy a tipple whilst preaching about the need to continue to outlaw cannabis automatically look like ill informed hypocrites to many of us without themselves realising this. And when I speak of facts on the ground informed by my own experience and you effectively impugn my honesty with a comment like "dream on" with no experience based or evidence based support for such a quip, as you did, it comes across as excessively rude and unnecessarily combative and dismissive of what I am saying. This appears to be impugning my honesty, dismissing my personal experience, in a contemptuous way, and it very much put me into a lock horns and combative state of mind, because the usual respect for my honesty and experience and point of view was clearly lacking. Or so it seemed.
|
|
Steve
Hero Protagonist
Posts: 2,556
|
Post by Steve on Jul 31, 2024 9:24:37 GMT
self deleted, replaced by PM
|
|
Steve
Hero Protagonist
Posts: 2,556
|
Post by Steve on Jul 31, 2024 9:51:30 GMT
Does anyone really believe that not one person ever has been deterred from using cannabis by its illegality? I've known users and non users and have no doubt the legal position was a big factor in the latter group.
|
|
|
Post by dappy on Jul 31, 2024 12:37:26 GMT
I do enjoy SRB contributions to this forum. Often they can be from a different life experience to my own which adds an interesting perspective.
I do think the decision of whether or not to use Cannabis is influenced in many peoples case by the law - not all certainly but in many case. If nothing else the law influences availability of supply - I can buy Tobacco and Alcohol at my local Co-Op. I could probably work out where to source Cannabis but it would be a bit of a faff.
Some people do jobs that would be affected by any criminal conviction even a low level one like Cannabis.
Some people just prefer to stay on the “right” side of the law.
I think it is unquestionable that Cannabis use would increase if it was legalized . I dont really have a view on whether or not that matters.
|
|
Steve
Hero Protagonist
Posts: 2,556
|
Post by Steve on Jul 31, 2024 21:05:41 GMT
I do enjoy SRB contributions to this forum. Often they can be from a different life experience to my own which adds an interesting perspective. I do think the decision of whether or not to use Cannabis is influenced in many peoples case by the law - not all certainly but in many case. If nothing else the law influences availability of supply - I can buy Tobacco and Alcohol at my local Co-Op. I could probably work out where to source Cannabis but it would be a bit of a faff. Some people do jobs that would be affected by any criminal conviction even a low level one like Cannabis. Some people just prefer to stay on the “right” side of the law. I think it is unquestionable that Cannabis use would increase if it was legalized . I dont really have a view on whether or not that matters. Exactly Every one knows prohibition doesn't work 100% but it's not the 100% ineffective either that SRB asserted. Lots of pros and cons to weigh up through considering direct, indirect and even third order effects. I saw a lot of 1970's style drug taking, it was mostly, maybe even totally harmless but the users didn't drive cars that are now essential transport to most people and it wasn't skunk grade cannabis that is now so available and has to be taken into account in any policy.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2024 20:51:35 GMT
Does anyone really believe that not one person ever has been deterred from using cannabis by its illegality? I've known users and non users and have no doubt the legal position was a big factor in the latter group. I never said that. I said based upon my personal experience that I had never known anyone who wanted to get hold of cannabis being deterred from doing so by the law or being unable to. Whether more people would try it if it could be bought legally is open to question, but in my experience the law stops no one who wants it already. For all the arguments I have made in earlier posts which have gone unaddressed naturally, many of the more harmful effects of cannabis are made worse by illegality. From someone who knows what he is talking about from having been there and been immersed in the scene for a number of years, you do look rather ill informed on the subject to me, like many who insist the war on drugs is a success. Sorry if that offends but it is a fact relevant to this discussion. And when I choose to debate something, I prefer to do so openly for all to see and where anyone else can join in, not in private and especially not in ways that fucus upon personal animosity.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2024 20:54:16 GMT
I do enjoy SRB contributions to this forum. Often they can be from a different life experience to my own which adds an interesting perspective. I do think the decision of whether or not to use Cannabis is influenced in many peoples case by the law - not all certainly but in many case. If nothing else the law influences availability of supply - I can buy Tobacco and Alcohol at my local Co-Op. I could probably work out where to source Cannabis but it would be a bit of a faff. Some people do jobs that would be affected by any criminal conviction even a low level one like Cannabis. Some people just prefer to stay on the “right” side of the law. I think it is unquestionable that Cannabis use would increase if it was legalized . I dont really have a view on whether or not that matters. Exactly Every one knows prohibition doesn't work 100% but it's not the 100% ineffective either that SRB asserted. Lots of pros and cons to weigh up through considering direct, indirect and even third order effects. I saw a lot of 1970's style drug taking, it was mostly, maybe even totally harmless but the users didn't drive cars that are now essential transport to most people and it wasn't skunk grade cannabis that is now so available and has to be taken into account in any policy. And of course prohibition was a fabulous success in 20s America. It was particularly effective in providing opportunities for a big expansion in violent gangs whilst being far less effective in actually stopping anyone who wanted to from drinking. Recognise any pattern there?
|
|
Steve
Hero Protagonist
Posts: 2,556
|
Post by Steve on Aug 1, 2024 20:58:36 GMT
. . .And you also appear to be labouring under the illusion that making it illegal actually stops anybody. It doesn't. . . .
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2024 21:07:07 GMT
I suggest don't be the first to use and continue to use personal sleights next time we disagree. I suggest you don't call me a liar with comments like "dream on" when I relate my honest personal experiences. And my comments about the ill informed nature of some of your opinions are valid points to make, which you could have countered by describing personal experiences of your own or some kind of evidence. Both have been sparse from you. You tried to continue this debate with me privately out of sight of everyone else. Because i did not think this issue worth us falling out, I suggested a truce there. You refused. I then said that I did not want to debate this via PM. You continued doing so. So I got angry and told you to leave me alone in no uncertain terms and blocked you for 24 hours. I feel that the mutual respect we once had for each other has been damaged, largely because on this issue you think I am being utterly stupid whilst I think you are chronically ill informed without the apparent insight to see it. We each think the other is being stupid, a thought process that is not conducive to mutual respect. Since I value mutual respect more than I value winning the argument on this one, is exactly why I suggested a truce in the first place.
|
|