Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2024 10:30:38 GMT
Define "work" Preventing world war is its no 1 purpose and to that end it works perfectly The silly posts here frankly aren't doing a good job of defending the EU properly, but to boil it down to the most basic of basics: preventing war between Euro countries has to be the most important thing and that works. That's why I don't want to see it dissolve That misses the point. You can't talk about preventing war without mentioning the economic advantages because the EU seeks to prevent war by increasing economic ties. Misses what point? Vinny said the EU doesn't work and I said yes it does because it prevents world war. Where did economics come into that argument one way or the other? It wasn't mentioned one way or the other |
|
|
|
Post by Saint on Jul 19, 2024 10:34:07 GMT
That misses the point. You can't talk about preventing war without mentioning the economic advantages because the EU seeks to prevent war by increasing economic ties. Misses what point? Vinny said the EU doesn't work and I said yes it does because it prevents world war. Where did economics come into that argument one way or the other? It wasn't mentioned one way or the other Economics is the instrument used to prevent war. War is prevented by the creation of economic co-dependency. Dismissing posts which highlight the economic aspects of EU membership as 'silly' ignores that fact. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2024 10:40:34 GMT
Misses what point? Vinny said the EU doesn't work and I said yes it does because it prevents world war. Where did economics come into that argument one way or the other? It wasn't mentioned one way or the other Economics is the instrument used to prevent war. War is prevented by the creation of economic co-dependency. Dismissing posts which highlight the economic aspects of EU membership as 'silly' ignores that fact. I'm not "dismissing" posts because they talk about economics and economic co-dependency, I'm ignoring them because they're making ridiculous arguments about HP brown sauce |
|
|
|
Post by Saint on Jul 19, 2024 10:43:23 GMT
Economics is the instrument used to prevent war. War is prevented by the creation of economic co-dependency. Dismissing posts which highlight the economic aspects of EU membership as 'silly' ignores that fact. I'm not "dismissing" posts because they talk about economics and economic co-dependency, I'm ignoring them because they're making ridiculous arguments about HP brown sauce Oh, okay. The HP sauce post was silly, I'll grant you that. |
|
Steve
Hero Protagonist
Posts: 3,365
|
Post by Steve on Jul 19, 2024 11:11:38 GMT
Yes it can work without a fiscal union. The EU has already proven that it does not. 24 years on it's still working very well, far more used as a reserve currency than the UK £ Just because every thing that uses the € isn't perfect doesn't mean it's not been a very good thing for the countries and businesses that use it. |
|
|
|
Post by vinny on Jul 19, 2024 11:14:05 GMT
if the EU is working very well without fiscal union why are there so many foodbank users in the Eurozone?
|
|
Steve
Hero Protagonist
Posts: 3,365
|
Post by Steve on Jul 19, 2024 11:15:19 GMT
Anyone that thinks being out of the EU means we're able to ignore EU laws just needs to buy a bottle of Coke (other similarly affected drinks are available)
You can't take the cap fully off. It's an EU rule that applies only to EU countries but the law of business critical mass has far more impact and UK bottling firms are in effect adopting the same standard for drinks made and sold in the UK.
Effective sovereignty is never absolute.
|
|
Steve
Hero Protagonist
Posts: 3,365
|
Post by Steve on Jul 19, 2024 11:18:18 GMT
if the EU is working very well without fiscal union why are there so many foodbank users in the Eurozone? Because life is never perfect. |
|
|
|
Post by vinny on Jul 19, 2024 11:20:42 GMT
Neither here nor there.
I said if the EU works without fiscal union, why are there so many foodbank users in the Eurozone?
The EU needs fiscal union in order to work. Doesn't it?
That way taxes can be issued universally, wealth can be redistributed properly, public spending can be addressed on a needs basis, currency can be devalued in a recession based on need, interest rates can be set more fairly. An EU welfare state could be established etc.
It doesn't work. It isn't balanced.
|
|
|
|
Post by vinny on Jul 19, 2024 11:22:49 GMT
if the EU is working very well without fiscal union why are there so many foodbank users in the Eurozone? Because life is never perfect. Cop out. If you have power to prevent harm, but harm is done, you are responsible. |
|
Steve
Hero Protagonist
Posts: 3,365
|
Post by Steve on Jul 19, 2024 11:31:40 GMT
Because life is never perfect. Cop out. If you have power to prevent harm, but harm is done, you are responsible. Which Guns N Roses album are you on now, Use your Illusion 1 or 2? Those of us in the real world know that hell is where nutters impose total control of everything in order to supposedly prevent all harm and ironically in the attempt cause far more harm. The Eurozone works, it delivers wealth and opportunity but it does not go to that absurd level to eradicate all harm. Only a fool would expect it to so what's your excuse for trying to judge it by absurd standards? |
|
|
|
Post by andrewbrown on Jul 19, 2024 11:42:19 GMT
That was a good thing. That horrible vinegary smell opposite the BRMB studios in Aston was rank. Heathen. 125 people lost their jobs there alone. Car production jobs lost to the EU were in the thousands. All because of a lack of level playing field on wages and taxes and it being cheaper to import than make. Being in the EU was really bad for us. Blimey. I guess facetiousness doesn't translate well on fora? I didn't expect anyone to take it seriously! Sorry! |
|
|
|
Post by brownlow on Jul 19, 2024 11:49:49 GMT
I mean, a lot of countries gave up their currency and are prospering, such as Estonia etc I'm not sure why everyone is so wedded to the currency, although it's good New Labour didn't adopt the euro at the time, it was good in hindsight, but now maybe things are different? Yep. Currency is just a method of valuing your assets. Doesn't matter what name it has. If it were just that, it's doubtful that it would perform that function (see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt%3A_The_First_5000_Years).
Currencies are, by now, much more than that. They're complex, evolving political and legal structures, most of which is invisible in everyday use. It doesn't matter what name it has, but it very much matters who gets to issue it, on what criteria. |
|
|
|
Post by Amadan on Jul 19, 2024 15:21:57 GMT
if the EU is working very well without fiscal union why are there so many foodbank users in the Eurozone? if the uk is working so well why are 9/10 poorest regions of Northern Europe in the uk , with the majority being in England?  |
|
|
|
Post by Amadan on Jul 19, 2024 15:37:21 GMT
I don't think Vinny has made a compelling argument in his life. The majority are so full of holes and contradictions it's unbelievable the rubbish he comes out with at times. To move back to the EU argument , there are so many things to consider , so many pros and cons , its why I think there should be a second referendum , with carefully laid out arguments rather than blank pieces of paper promising the delusional like Vinny return of empire and glory. Starmers plan appears to be signing the uk back into the Eu by stealth , a thousand treaties behind the Brussels bike sheds , we can see its doomed before he begins. All he will do is empower people like Vinny , and brexiters in general will once again be martyred and potentially have the sympathy of those in the middle ground who are open to persuasion either way. Another major problem of course as ive said for years is Englands reputation and whatever clout it may have world wide. I specifically say England for obvious reasons , and Englands reputation will be in tatters I think if it comes crawling back to the EU , the world wide perception will be a slave crawling back to master. You will be a laughing stock. A lot of damage was done in 2016 , and the years running up to it as we have covered ad nauseam across various political sites over the years. Delusion of grandeur , brainwashing , pride , alternate reality of the world we live in today , coupled by a sense of grievance , much of which can be laid at the door of successive uk governments has led us to where we are today. The uk , if it survives , can rejoin the EU , but there will be massive consequences , some of which are laid out above , as well as benefits , but one thing is abundantly clear , it will not be the same as pre 2016. Many good points. Nonetheless, it's true that a country controlling its own currency means it isn't subject to an external central bank. That is a reasonable remark IMHO. If the far-right takes over the EU as it seems they want to, I wouldn't want them controlling our currency, so I have to hand that to objectors to the Euro becoming our currency, at the same time, you and Saint make many good points as well in its favour so I'm not swung by either argument completely well aye , you are telling me about currencies and central banks after the arguments in scotland around 2014? I think the currency argument will be a key brexiter argument , against rejoin , just as it was a weakness of salmonds argument in 2014 for indy. Im not sure why the argument against a far right bogeyman controlling the euro is any more a problem than say a far right Reform uk controlling the British pound after the next uk GE. I think more of a problem will be the symbolism of the English crawling back to the EU and going through the motions of joining the euro , (which as we know they can use the current mechanisms in place to stay out of as Sweden has done) when it was merely a hundred years ago the British pound was the worlds top currency. I think once again that will signify to folk in the uk the massive decline of the uk , and might be very hard for even those in the middle ground to stomach joining, or being asked to join , the euro. I personally dont have a problem with scotland , or the uk joining. I also favoured ditching the pound and having our own Scottish currency , such as the smackeroonie , as Kevin bridges joked . seriously though I do think in the future the major world regions , and eventually the entire globe will use the same currency , but that will be well beyond our lifetimes . |
|
