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Post by dappy on Jun 30, 2024 7:49:08 GMT
Still waiting for practical examples of the “culture loss” Orac is referring to.
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Post by Zany on Jun 30, 2024 7:53:14 GMT
Its interesting why Reform attracts so many racists etc. Farage seems genuinely annoyed by the stuff that keeps happening. So is Farage really a racist playing down his true thoughts on people from certain other continents or is his party against further immigration and that just happens to be the nearest thing to a party the racists can support. In the words of our beloved Red Rackham. Its not racist to want immigration stopped. Does the endless accusation of racism for even mentioning someone's country of origin if they aren't white and the penalising anyone who should accidentally use the term 'coloured' 'black' 'person of colour' instead of this weeks acceptable description. Lead many to feel they are nearer Farage than they otherwise would be. Orac raised an interesting point on here. When he suggested that if you bring enough people from different culture (one you don't admire) into this country, don't you risk losing your own culture. What was interesting was not so much Orac's particular view, but rather the fact that everyone immediately pulled out all the stops to distance themselves from the idea to the point where it was difficult to have the idea properly discussed at all. My fear is that by being too prissy we end up driving more and more into the arms of the fascists. I mean did the Nazis realise they were Nazis when they elected Hitler. I'm reminded of this sketch by Mitchell and Web. www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToKcmnrE5oYZany, - the argument about culture is reasonable (even on the left's terms) but it can't be engaged in (afforded). by anyone who is pro-immigration. The risk of destroying or reducing a culture that works and expanding a culture that doesn't work (at the former's expense) is real. It's not even just a risk, It is hard to see how you would perform mass immigration from failed societies without it happening. However, the trivial observation leads to a question - why are we doing this at all? Is the objective here to fix your 'opponents' with a parasite they can't avoid? To teach them a lessen in humility?? Are you trying to destroy the society that you live in? Is this a cynical 'spoiling action'? The left's (pro immigration) tactic is not to allow the debate at all - to make it taboo to talk plainly about the obvious - and this tactic has worked for decades. Now the paint is peeling and people are starting to ask questions and state how they feel. Why should our community in particular be under continuous numerical and territorial siege? Why is the BBC applauding when they hear about our further reduction? Why can't this policy be stopped by normal democratic means by mainstream parties? I don't think it has anything to do with pro/anti immigration. I am anti immigration but feel the need to justify my reasons as overcrowding generally rather than cultural change. If your reason for wanting immigration controlled is about the rate of cultural change you have a much harder time. Not just in persuading others you are right but in not immediately being questioned about your views of people of colour. Try and talk about the cultural differences of Indians or Sudanese and you will not be heard under to deluge of accusations and requests for you to say what 'you really think' Now I'm as much against racism as you can get, but telling people they can't discuss any differences without being a racist is driving many into the arms of the real ones. I have businesses all around the country providing leisure activities and I can say from experience that Indians expect a very different level of service than do English, we have had complaints that staff were not deferential enough, something us English find very difficult to deal with. Eastern Europeans shout and demand as if they expect you to say no rather than awaiting your answer first. Asians tend to keep trying to tack extras on the end after you've agreed a price. None of these things are game changers but they are real cultural differences. If you say Americans have a litigation culture no one blinks an eye, but point out differences in some cultures invites a storm of insult and insinuation. To be not allowed to even discuss them is IMO very dangerous I'd like to think my credentials on racism are well known both on here and the other forum, but I still wonder if I will get branded by this one post. Just so you all know. I donate to Black lives matter. (Why do I feel the need to tell you that, such is the fear) |
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Post by dappy on Jun 30, 2024 8:25:50 GMT
So is this the “culture loss” that has been suggested but I am finding it difficult to get defined?
I think it is a mistake to imply that all people from a certain background behave in the same way - that is patent nonsense - so perhaps you would be better to add the word “tend” to your list of behaviour. Also if listing behaviours of groups of people, it is often good to recognise perceived positive behavioural traits as well as negative ones.
That said it is I think true to suggest that different groups of people can have usually minor different behavioural traits. Driving habits in London and the South East are very different for example than those in say Devon. Is this the essence of what you are driving at?
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Post by montegriffo on Jun 30, 2024 8:29:41 GMT
Northerners talk funny and people from Devon put the cream and jam on their scones in the wrong order.
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Post by Orac on Jun 30, 2024 9:10:22 GMT
Still waiting for practical examples of the “culture loss” Orac is referring to. This is an imbecilic assertion that our culture is non existent unless defined fully in an essay. ..and this is the kind of cretinism people encounter when they start to ask simple questions |
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Steve
Hero Protagonist
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Post by Steve on Jun 30, 2024 9:37:55 GMT
Still waiting for practical examples of the “culture loss” Orac is referring to. This is an imbecilic assertion that our culture is non existent unless defined fully in an essay. ..and this is the kind of cretinism people encounter when they start to ask simple questions You think that posts like that are part of a good culture? |
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Post by dappy on Jun 30, 2024 9:39:57 GMT
It is perhaps Illuminative when those who claim to be prevented from articulating their opinion, when given the opportunity to explain their view by giving say three practical examples of their issue instead prefer to close the conversation down by reverting to abuse.
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Post by equivocal on Jun 30, 2024 10:51:51 GMT
I think 'culture' is difficult to define. I suspect most would agree that British culture is based on liberal, democratic values with equal rights and opportunities. The argument, then, runs along the lines of if the country imports large numbers of people whose culture is not based on similar values, then the country's cultural base is diluted.
What I find paradoxical is many of those who uphold (live by?) the values that I have proposed form the basis of British culture appear to turn a blind eye to communities whose cultural values are, at least in part, diametrically opposed to their own. At the same time, those who vocally object to the 'foreign' values in those communities appear, at least to me, to have most in common with them.
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Post by Zany on Jun 30, 2024 11:40:23 GMT
So is this the “culture loss” that has been suggested but I am finding it difficult to get defined? I think it is a mistake to imply that all people from a certain background behave in the same way - that is patent nonsense - so perhaps you would be better to add the word “tend” to your list of behaviour. Also if listing behaviours of groups of people, it is often good to recognise perceived positive behavioural traits as well as negative ones. I could add the word tend, but I think any reasonable person would assume that anyway. When we talk about Americans being litigious we assume the word tend and that the tend is large enough to be cultural. Perhaps we could use the same judgement with other cultures. Whilst I agree that is true, I think your example is more to do with conditions rather than culture. A better example might be the South African idea of 'in a minute' meaning anytime over the next two days. A much less hassled attitude towards getting things done, which they take for granted but tourists from the UK find annoying. That said, I'm all for adjusting ourselves to the good parts of other cultures and flattening out the bad bits as we have for centuries. The problem is that being scared to say Indian families attitude to those serving does not match ours (for fear of sanction or cancelling) then you cannot change it. Thus we are free to extol their better traits but not to criticise the worse ones. |
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Post by Zany on Jun 30, 2024 11:42:11 GMT
Northerners talk funny and people from Devon put the cream and jam on their scones in the wrong order. Try making those type of generalised criticisms of people from Pakistan and it feels very awkward. |
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Steve
Hero Protagonist
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Post by Steve on Jun 30, 2024 11:51:51 GMT
Do they have scones with jam and cream in Pakistan?
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Post by dappy on Jun 30, 2024 11:55:45 GMT
As a point of order, Monte is quite wrong. It is the Cornish who get the order of jam and cream first so badly wrong. Bless them.
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Post by dappy on Jun 30, 2024 12:00:31 GMT
I don’t agree that many would recognise that “tend” is implied Zany. It’s quite an important qualification in my view.
Meanwhile I am still waiting for a practical example of where “our culture” is being lost. It’s quite hard to accept or counter an argument when it is seemingly so difficult to explain what is meant.
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Post by dappy on Jun 30, 2024 12:03:18 GMT
Northerners talk funny and people from Devon put the cream and jam on their scones in the wrong order. Try making those type of generalised criticisms of people from Pakistan and it feels very awkward. It would feel awkward if those generalized criticisms of “Northerners” or “Devonians” were intended as hard criticism rather than tongue in cheek too. |
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Post by Zany on Jun 30, 2024 12:07:29 GMT
Do they have scones with jam and cream in Pakistan? Dear oh dear. Monte said: Northerners talk funny and people from Devon put the cream and jam on their scones in the wrong order. Note you didn't say. Do the people talk with funny in Pakistan.  |
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