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Post by totheleft on May 28, 2024 23:29:05 GMT
Sorry I was thinking of 2019 again, but it keeps getting swapped back to 17 Well by 2019 the smear campaign against Corbyn had by then had maximum impact, and in part that is Corbyn's own fault for not fighting back. Also by then Starmer had been allowed to engineer an unpopular policy on Brexit in an election where Brexit was the issue much more so than in 2017. Plus Labour slipped in too many additional unfunded promises in 2019. You said the country disliked my brand of socialism. But in policy terms my brand of socialism is much more the 2017 manifesto than the 2019 one. And that is the one whose policies were largely revealed to have wide public support. It wasnt them that the country rejected, but Corbyn himself, Labour's evident disunity, and it's position on Brexit. Srb you keep mentioning how the 2017 manifesto was popular with the working Class have you seen what happened in 2017 More working class turned to The Conservative then ever before . Search Donate Menu Search Who do the working classes vote for? latest-news Share www.turn2us.org.uk/about-us/news-and-media/latest-news/who-do-the-working-classes-vote-forWho do the working classes vote for? Who do the working classes vote for? Who do the working classes vote for? Between 1987 and the most recent election in 2017, voting habits for people on low-incomes have changed dramatically. While people on low incomes have historically been more likely to vote Labour than Conservative, party loyalty is no longer guaranteed. A new report from JRF states that: “Low-income voters are ‘up for grabs’ like never before”. Between 2010 and 2017, over 50% of low income voters changed who they voted for or if they voted at all. Timeline 1987: 47% of low income voters supported Labour, while 29% voted Conservative 1992: 54% of low income voters supported Labour, while 26% voted Conservative 1997: 64% of low income voters supported Labour, while 13% voted Conservative 2001: 66% of low income voters supported Labour, while 12% voted Conservative 2005: 47% of low income voters supported Labour, while 22% voted Conservative 2010: 39% of low income voters supported Labour, while 25% voted Conservative 2015: 40% of low income voters supported Labour, while 28% voted Conservative 2017: 53% of low income voters supported Labour, while 33% voted Conservative Votes for the Liberal Democrats fell from 23% in 1987 to 2% in 2017.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2024 8:01:23 GMT
Well by 2019 the smear campaign against Corbyn had by then had maximum impact, and in part that is Corbyn's own fault for not fighting back. Also by then Starmer had been allowed to engineer an unpopular policy on Brexit in an election where Brexit was the issue much more so than in 2017. Plus Labour slipped in too many additional unfunded promises in 2019. You said the country disliked my brand of socialism. But in policy terms my brand of socialism is much more the 2017 manifesto than the 2019 one. And that is the one whose policies were largely revealed to have wide public support. It wasnt them that the country rejected, but Corbyn himself, Labour's evident disunity, and it's position on Brexit. Srb you keep mentioning how the 2017 manifesto was popular with the working Class have you seen what happened in 2017 More working class turned to The Conservative then ever before . Search Donate Menu Search Who do the working classes vote for? latest-news Share www.turn2us.org.uk/about-us/news-and-media/latest-news/who-do-the-working-classes-vote-forWho do the working classes vote for? Who do the working classes vote for? Who do the working classes vote for? Between 1987 and the most recent election in 2017, voting habits for people on low-incomes have changed dramatically. While people on low incomes have historically been more likely to vote Labour than Conservative, party loyalty is no longer guaranteed. A new report from JRF states that: “Low-income voters are ‘up for grabs’ like never before”. Between 2010 and 2017, over 50% of low income voters changed who they voted for or if they voted at all. Timeline 1987: 47% of low income voters supported Labour, while 29% voted Conservative 1992: 54% of low income voters supported Labour, while 26% voted Conservative 1997: 64% of low income voters supported Labour, while 13% voted Conservative 2001: 66% of low income voters supported Labour, while 12% voted Conservative 2005: 47% of low income voters supported Labour, while 22% voted Conservative 2010: 39% of low income voters supported Labour, while 25% voted Conservative 2015: 40% of low income voters supported Labour, while 28% voted Conservative 2017: 53% of low income voters supported Labour, while 33% voted Conservative Votes for the Liberal Democrats fell from 23% in 1987 to 2% in 2017. And you think that was because of their policies, in spite of their measured popularity? And I was actually talking about the electorate as a whole and not just the working class. As I have said before and which is logically obvious but which I am failing to get through thick skulls, it was not the policies they liked that prevented them voting Labour but the things they didn't . The working class in particular were sold on Brexit which is why they backed the Tories. The logic here is laughable. The reason people didnt vote Labour in sufficient numbers is because they didnt like the policies, when polling demonstrated the exact opposite. It was things they didn't like which turned them against Labour, not things they did like. Everything you are saying is is based on a demonstrably false assumption that ignores the evidence, eg that the policies themselves were popular. That is not what the polling said however much you want it to be true. When your entire argument is built on a falsehood it is an argument without logical foundation. Yes Labour was unpopular in some quarters for many reasons, including Brexit. But widespread dislike of the 2017 manifesto was not one of them
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Post by equivocal on May 29, 2024 8:24:13 GMT
And you think that was because of their policies, in spite of their measured popularity? And I was actually talking about the electorate as a whole and not just the working class. As I have said before and which is logically obvious but which I am failing to get through thick skulls, it was not the policies they liked that prevented them voting Labour but the things they didn't . The working class in particular were sold on Brexit which is why they backed the Tories. The logic here is laughable. The reason people didnt vote Labour in sufficient numbers is because they didnt like the policies, when polling demonstrated the exact opposite. It was things they didn't like which turned them against Labour, not things they did like. Everything you are saying is is based on a demonstrably false assumption that ignores the evidence, eg that the policies themselves were popular. That is not what the polling said however much you want it to be true. When your entire argument is built on a falsehood it is an argument without logical foundation. Yes Labour was unpopular in some quarters for many reasons, including Brexit. But widespread dislike of the 2017 manifesto was not one of them I'm afraid I can't remember much of Labour's 2017 manifesto. To save me the time of looking for things that may not be there; are you saying the manifesto was popular but "things" outside the manifesto persuaded many people to vote other than for Labour?
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Steve
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Post by Steve on May 29, 2024 8:37:46 GMT
Well by 2019 the smear campaign against Corbyn had by then had maximum impact, and in part that is Corbyn's own fault for not fighting back. Also by then Starmer had been allowed to engineer an unpopular policy on Brexit in an election where Brexit was the issue much more so than in 2017. Plus Labour slipped in too many additional unfunded promises in 2019. You said the country disliked my brand of socialism. But in policy terms my brand of socialism is much more the 2017 manifesto than the 2019 one. And that is the one whose policies were largely revealed to have wide public support. It wasnt them that the country rejected, but Corbyn himself, Labour's evident disunity, and it's position on Brexit. Srb you keep mentioning how the 2017 manifesto was popular with the working Class have you seen what happened in 2017 More working class turned to The Conservative then ever before . Search Donate Menu Search Who do the working classes vote for? latest-news Share www.turn2us.org.uk/about-us/news-and-media/latest-news/who-do-the-working-classes-vote-forWho do the working classes vote for? Who do the working classes vote for? Who do the working classes vote for? Between 1987 and the most recent election in 2017, voting habits for people on low-incomes have changed dramatically. While people on low incomes have historically been more likely to vote Labour than Conservative, party loyalty is no longer guaranteed. A new report from JRF states that: “Low-income voters are ‘up for grabs’ like never before”. Between 2010 and 2017, over 50% of low income voters changed who they voted for or if they voted at all. Timeline 1987: 47% of low income voters supported Labour, while 29% voted Conservative 1992: 54% of low income voters supported Labour, while 26% voted Conservative 1997: 64% of low income voters supported Labour, while 13% voted Conservative 2001: 66% of low income voters supported Labour, while 12% voted Conservative 2005: 47% of low income voters supported Labour, while 22% voted Conservative 2010: 39% of low income voters supported Labour, while 25% voted Conservative 2015: 40% of low income voters supported Labour, while 28% voted Conservative 2017: 53% of low income voters supported Labour, while 33% voted Conservative Votes for the Liberal Democrats fell from 23% in 1987 to 2% in 2017. This chart from that report really doesn't support your view that the the 2017 manifesto was some turn off for the working classes. Labour gained more then the Tories from the collapse of the 'other' vote.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2024 9:09:23 GMT
And you think that was because of their policies, in spite of their measured popularity? And I was actually talking about the electorate as a whole and not just the working class. As I have said before and which is logically obvious but which I am failing to get through thick skulls, it was not the policies they liked that prevented them voting Labour but the things they didn't . The working class in particular were sold on Brexit which is why they backed the Tories. The logic here is laughable. The reason people didnt vote Labour in sufficient numbers is because they didnt like the policies, when polling demonstrated the exact opposite. It was things they didn't like which turned them against Labour, not things they did like. Everything you are saying is is based on a demonstrably false assumption that ignores the evidence, eg that the policies themselves were popular. That is not what the polling said however much you want it to be true. When your entire argument is built on a falsehood it is an argument without logical foundation. Yes Labour was unpopular in some quarters for many reasons, including Brexit. But widespread dislike of the 2017 manifesto was not one of them I'm afraid I can't remember much of Labour's 2017 manifesto. To save me the time of looking for things that may not be there; are you saying the manifesto was popular but "things" outside the manifesto persuaded many people to vote other than for Labour? Since some - not you - repeatedly insist that the unpopularity of Labour's policies lay behind their defeat, here is the polling evidence demonstrating the popularity of their policies at the time.... www.businessinsider.com/poll-huge-public-support-for-jeremy-corbyns-manifesto-promises-2017-5Those who ignore that and insist that the policy agenda was what lost it are effectively putting their fingers in their ears whilst singing "la, la, la I can't hear you." Clearly, policies that were liked by two thirds or three quarters of the electorate are not going to be what cost Labour the election. It is logically nonsensical to assume that it did. But centrists and Blairites insist on that having been so anyway, a victory of assumption over logic and evidence. Just because they want it to be true. The logic is in fact simple to those without an agenda that makes it inconvenient.. Labour lost, not because of the things people liked which included most of the 2017 policy agenda but because of the things they didn't. The 2017 manifesto was just about the only thing people liked about Labour. There were lots of other reasons why people turned away, not least of which was Brexit and mistrust of Corbyn personally.
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Post by totheleft on May 29, 2024 9:18:00 GMT
True picture of Class vote 2017.
Voters crossed party lines, challenging traditional class-party loyalties. Middle-class votes swung to Labour, which increased its share of ABC1 voters by 12 points compared with the previous general election. However more working-class voters came out for the Conservatives and the party increased its share of the C2DE voters by 12 points.
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Steve
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Post by Steve on May 29, 2024 9:35:42 GMT
And by 2019 even low income voters had seen through Corbyn for the fraud he was
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Post by equivocal on May 29, 2024 9:38:40 GMT
I'm afraid I can't remember much of Labour's 2017 manifesto. To save me the time of looking for things that may not be there; are you saying the manifesto was popular but "things" outside the manifesto persuaded many people to vote other than for Labour? Since some - not you - repeatedly insist that the unpopularity of Labour's policies lay behind their defeat, here is the polling evidence demonstrating the popularity of their policies at the time.... www.businessinsider.com/poll-huge-public-support-for-jeremy-corbyns-manifesto-promises-2017-5Those who ignore that and insist that the policy agenda was what lost it are effectively putting their fingers in their ears whilst singing "la, la, la I can't hear you." Clearly, policies that were liked by two thirds or three quarters of the electorate are not going to be what cost Labour the election. It is logically nonsensical to assume that it did. But centrists and Blairites insist on that having been so anyway, a victory of assumption over logic and evidence. Just because they want it to be true. The logic is in fact simple to those without an agenda that makes it inconvenient.. Labour lost, not because of the things people liked which included most of the 2017 policy agenda but because of the things they didn't. The 2017 manifesto was just about the only thing people liked about Labour. There were lots of other reasons why people turned away, not least of which was Brexit and mistrust of Corbyn personally. Thank you for the link. While on the surface it appears counter intuitive to hold that Labour failed to gain power because of popular policies, I suppose the explanation is to be found at the end of the article. If the bulk of the electorate believed the policies were undeliverable, then, however popular the policies, they become perceived as pie in the sky and leave voters with nothing to vote for.
Whether that counts as Labour losing the election because of things people liked, I'm not sure.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2024 9:48:02 GMT
True picture of Class vote 2017. Voters crossed party lines, challenging traditional class-party loyalties. Middle-class votes swung to Labour, which increased its share of ABC1 voters by 12 points compared with the previous general election. However more working-class voters came out for the Conservatives and the party increased its share of the C2DE voters by 12 points. Yes, a lot of that to do with Brexit. I am not and have not been saying that this isnt the case, merely that the polling evidence makes clear the 2017 policies were not the reason for it. These were popular. Again I have posted the link to the evidence.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2024 9:56:55 GMT
And by 2019 even low income voters had seen through Corbyn for the fraud he was I have long acknowledged that there were lots of reasons why not enough people voted Labour, and the unpopularity of Corbyn himself was one of them. But policies liked by three quarters of voters were clearly not the reason for people not voting for them. What lost it for Labour was Corbyn, the successful weaponisation of antisemitism against him, his own character flaws, Labours position on Brexit, open party disunity, the party being seen as weak on security, and so on. There were many reasons why Labour lost. The only things people liked about them were clearly not amongst them. Otherwise you are effectively putting forward the notion that people didnt vote Labour because they liked their policies too much, which is both risible and laughable. It is logically obvious that Labour lost in spite of popular policies and not because of them. Were it not for the 2017 manifesto they would likely have done far worse.
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Post by totheleft on May 29, 2024 10:07:00 GMT
True picture of Class vote 2017. Voters crossed party lines, challenging traditional class-party loyalties. Middle-class votes swung to Labour, which increased its share of ABC1 voters by 12 points compared with the previous general election. However more working-class voters came out for the Conservatives and the party increased its share of the C2DE voters by 12 points. Yes, a lot of that to do with Brexit. I am not and have not been saying that this isnt the case, merely that the polling evidence makes clear the 2017 policies were not the reason for it. These were popular. Again I have posted the link to the evidence. Wasn't the referendum in 2016 not 2017
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2024 10:17:18 GMT
Since some - not you - repeatedly insist that the unpopularity of Labour's policies lay behind their defeat, here is the polling evidence demonstrating the popularity of their policies at the time.... www.businessinsider.com/poll-huge-public-support-for-jeremy-corbyns-manifesto-promises-2017-5Those who ignore that and insist that the policy agenda was what lost it are effectively putting their fingers in their ears whilst singing "la, la, la I can't hear you." Clearly, policies that were liked by two thirds or three quarters of the electorate are not going to be what cost Labour the election. It is logically nonsensical to assume that it did. But centrists and Blairites insist on that having been so anyway, a victory of assumption over logic and evidence. Just because they want it to be true. The logic is in fact simple to those without an agenda that makes it inconvenient.. Labour lost, not because of the things people liked which included most of the 2017 policy agenda but because of the things they didn't. The 2017 manifesto was just about the only thing people liked about Labour. There were lots of other reasons why people turned away, not least of which was Brexit and mistrust of Corbyn personally. Thank you for the link. While on the surface it appears counter intuitive to hold that Labour failed to gain power because of popular policies, I suppose the explanation is to be found at the end of the article. If the bulk of the electorate believed the policies were undeliverable, then, however popular the policies, they become perceived as pie in the sky and leave voters with nothing to vote for.
Whether that counts as Labour losing the election because of things people liked, I'm not sure.
I was out campaigning for the party in 2017. And whilst I found myself constantly encountering criticism of Corbyn, especially from older voters, as well as negativity towards Labour over the EU and Brexit, I never encountered anyone who didn't like the policies. There was of course a cohort of people who never vote because they don't believe anything politicians promise. But this takes more the form of a plague on all their houses. I never encountered anyone who said they like the policies but were not going to vote for us because they didnt believe we were serious. I did encounter people who liked the policies but weren't going to vote for us because Corbyn was a twat, or words to that effect. So people voting against the party because they thought our policies were pie in the sky was not a big thing on the ground. In fact it tended only to be party centrists who thought that, rather than the voters. 2019 was different. There was a sense that people thought we were promising the impossible, particularly with the free broadband idea, which very few people believed was ever going to be possible. But what kept coming up all the time on almost every doorstep in that election - much more so than in 2017 - was Brexit, and the widespread perception that Labour was trying to subvert the will of the people and prevent it. I knew we were going to lose that election very badly, in large part due to the Brexit issue
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2024 10:21:05 GMT
Yes, a lot of that to do with Brexit. I am not and have not been saying that this isnt the case, merely that the polling evidence makes clear the 2017 policies were not the reason for it. These were popular. Again I have posted the link to the evidence. Wasn't the referendum in 2016 not 2017 Yes of course it was. But the attempt to prevent or limit it rolled on for three years afterwards. It was by far the top issue in 2019, and no one was buying what was being seen as Labour's attempt to subvert the will of the people. Simple fact. Labour's defeats in 2017 and 2019 had far more to do with Brexit than it did with popular policies. Clearly the party would have done far worse in 2017 without the latter.
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Post by equivocal on May 29, 2024 10:33:30 GMT
Thank you for the link. While on the surface it appears counter intuitive to hold that Labour failed to gain power because of popular policies, I suppose the explanation is to be found at the end of the article. If the bulk of the electorate believed the policies were undeliverable, then, however popular the policies, they become perceived as pie in the sky and leave voters with nothing to vote for.
Whether that counts as Labour losing the election because of things people liked, I'm not sure.
I was out campaigning for the party in 2017. And whilst I found myself constantly encountering criticism of Corbyn, especially from older voters, as well as negativity towards Labour over the EU and Brexit, I never encountered anyone who didn't like the policies. There was of course a cohort of people who never vote because they don't believe anything politicians promise. But this takes more the form of a plague on all their houses. I never encountered anyone who said they like the policies but were not going to vote for us because they didnt believe we were serious. I did encounter people who liked the policies but weren't going to vote for us because Corbyn was a twat, or words to that effect. So people voting against the party because they thought our policies were pie in the sky was not a big thing on the ground. In fact it tended only to be party centrists who thought that, rather than the voters. 2019 was different. There was a sense that people thought we were promising the impossible, particularly with the free broadband idea, which very few people believed was ever going to be possible. But what kept coming up all the time on almost every doorstep in that election - much more so than in 2017 - was Brexit, and the widespread perception that Labour was trying to subvert the will of the people and prevent it. I knew we were going to lose that election very badly, in large part due to the Brexit issue I'm sure your experience on the ground is faithfully recounted. However, if the survey is accurately reported, it seems to suggest a large proportion of respondents did not believe the policies were deliverable.
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Steve
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Post by Steve on May 29, 2024 10:49:11 GMT
Anyone know what has all this ^ ^^ ^^^ ^^^^ etc got to do with National Service?
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