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Post by dappy on May 8, 2024 19:08:42 GMT
I have a klong running joke conversation with a few business friends of mine who claim the public are totally ignorant of how business works. I say people don't know but we could tell them, they laugh and pour me another drink. I am a heart on my sleeve kind of guy and over the years I have tried on and off to explain to people how it works. I have fielded everything from how much tax businesses really pay, to "They just put there prices up" lol. This evening I give in. They are right. The ignorance and bigotry about bosses in this country vies with the ignorance others have towards Muslims or Gays. Ask about profit, they quote Shell Ask about employment, they quote Sports direct. No more. I join the rest of the business community. No wonder so many say you deserve to be poor. You have no clue how hard running a business is and no sympathy or desire to be educated. Zany, you are coming across as an arrogant prick. Of course running a business can be hard. That doesn’t give you the right to ignore your employees or your customers basic safety nor believe you are the font of all wisdom allowed to do totally as you please. At times the public needs protecting from bad businessmen. I am surprised frankly that you seem to be positioning yourself as one of them.
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Post by Zany on May 8, 2024 19:11:24 GMT
I imagine the advice from the Fire Service is “only fight the fire if you can do so without endangering yourself or others” and “if in doubt, get out”. Certainly that is the standard advice. As I hope you are aware, different types of fires need different extinguishers. Frankly , with the greatest respect Zany, any business owner who resents the basics of fire safety like fire extinguishers and why your premises license requires fire safety checks probably shouldn’t be allowed to operate a consumer facing business. I’m a little surprised at what you are posting tbh. If you ran a business you'd know. You can imagine what you like. I can tell you how it is. The fire officer concerned told me that if an employee was harmed fighting a fire I would be to blame. That we should put staff before possessions. Everyone out as fast as possible. Your bigotry is obvious, you wear it as a badge. I on the other had have been approached by Rospa to help them right the rules for this branch of the leisure industry as they were so impressed with our own procedures. Now go away with your petty insults and ignorance.
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Post by dappy on May 8, 2024 19:20:30 GMT
Of course you should put human beings before possessions Zany. No one has or would argue any differently.
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Post by Zany on May 8, 2024 19:32:20 GMT
Of course you should put human beings before possessions Zany. No one has or would argue any differently. Apart from you in your ignorance. So keen to condemn with your bigotry you didn't bother to think before accusing. But I'm done trying to explain nuance to you, your bigotry is to thick.
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Post by dappy on May 8, 2024 19:44:50 GMT
On the contrary Zany. I have told you what the standard advice in respect of fire is - employees should only fight the fire if they are certain they are not endangering themselves or others and that if in doubt get out. It’s putting people above possessions.
With respect I think it might be sensible for you to calm down a little, maybe eat a little humble pie and then reread the thread.
The points of substance you have made seem to be t 1) it is ridiculous that “the authorities” perform checks on fire safety compliance on buildings with public access 2) it is ridiculous that you should be expected to hold fire extinguishers 3) it is ridiculous that employers should hold a responsibility for ensuring as far as reasonably possible that their employees can perform a task at work safely.
I have to say I disagree with you on all three.
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Post by Zany on May 8, 2024 19:56:56 GMT
On the contrary Zany. I have told you what the standard advice in respect of fire is - employees should only fight the fire if they are certain they are not endangering themselves or others and that if in doubt get out. It’s putting people above possessions. With respect I think it might be sensible for you to calm down a little, maybe eat a little humble pie and then reread the thread. The points of substance you have made seem to be t 1) it is ridiculous that “the authorities” perform checks on fire safety compliance on buildings with public access 2) it is ridiculous that you should be expected to hold fire extinguishers 3) it is ridiculous that employers should hold a responsibility for ensuring as far as reasonably possible that their employees can perform a task at work safely. I have to say I disagree with you on all three. I think you might want to wind your neck in and stop telling people what to think, what they think and how they think it. such ignorance 1, I didn't say the authorities. They do that already. I said another company doing the same checks we already do. Christ you know nothing do you. Of course we get regular checks by the fire service. You run a company Hahahahaha 2, Another lie, trying to cover your previous mistake. Having fire extinguishers and being told not to use them. Paying a private independent company to pressure test fire extinguishers that come with pressure gauges on them. 3, More lies. never said that at all. That's straight out of your ignorant bigotry Why not add all bosses bad, all workers humble while you're on a roll. I know workers all care about each other and bosses don't care if kiddies burn. You make me sick.
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Post by dappy on May 8, 2024 20:29:13 GMT
The companies checking your fire equipment are presumably doing that on behalf of the authorities (to be fair could be on behalf of insurers). They want an independent check as some, by no means all, business owners and employers may otherwise be tempted to cut corners or may not understand the rules. You seem to think that’s ridiculous. I disagree. I think we need to prioritise people over possessions and that seems proportionate to me.
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Steve
Hero Protagonist
Posts: 3,633
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Post by Steve on May 8, 2024 21:42:59 GMT
In large organisations, safety instructions for opening a door or sitting down are not un-known. These will typically take the form of glossy e-courses that have to be reviewed and kept uo to date by a team lawyers and experts. It's a form of parasitism. The perfect parasite gets paid for changing nothing and therefore not being responsible for any change. According to the likes of the Daily Mail. But do you have any sources of repute for that?
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Steve
Hero Protagonist
Posts: 3,633
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Post by Steve on May 8, 2024 22:02:25 GMT
. . . I am Aware of ALARP, in real terms its meaningless because its so vague. Its a classic piece of government advice. What is tolerable risk? Acceptable risk? . . Well clearly you are not really aware of ALARP and the body of case law behind it that actually comes NOT originally from the government but actually the courts holding a government body (the then NCB) to account.vis a vis the common law of tort. Put simply, As Low As Reasonable Practicable means everyone should take measures to improve safety until the net effort/cost of such is disproportionate to the net gain. Typically it means taking a view both on the value of a life and the degree to which non action is putting such live(s) at risk. HSE do give a lot of guidance . An example: www.hse.gov.uk/foi/internalops/hid_circs/permissioning/spc_perm_37/
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Post by Zany on May 9, 2024 6:19:23 GMT
In large organisations, safety instructions for opening a door or sitting down are not un-known. These will typically take the form of glossy e-courses that have to be reviewed and kept uo to date by a team lawyers and experts. It's a form of parasitism. The perfect parasite gets paid for changing nothing and therefore not being responsible for any change. According to the likes of the Daily Mail. But do you have any sources of repute for that? There's plenty out there. I get 3 or 4 emails every month warning me I could be breeching some or other regulation and that I should send staff on one or other course. Whether you take any notice depends on your own knowledge and nervousness. Its easier now the company is bigger and has in house specialists, but when the company was growing it took up a lot of my time.
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Post by Zany on May 9, 2024 6:36:29 GMT
. . . I am Aware of ALARP, in real terms its meaningless because its so vague. Its a classic piece of government advice. What is tolerable risk? Acceptable risk? . . Well clearly you are not really aware of ALARP and the body of case law behind it that actually comes NOT originally from the government but actually the courts holding a government body (the then NCB) to account.vis a vis the common law of tort. Put simply, As Low As Reasonable Practicable means everyone should take measures to improve safety until the net effort/cost of such is disproportionate to the net gain. Typically it means taking a view both on the value of a life and the degree to which non action is putting such live(s) at risk. HSE do give a lot of guidance . An example: www.hse.gov.uk/foi/internalops/hid_circs/permissioning/spc_perm_37/I'm going to leave this thread Steve. I have found the reaction of posters on here upsetting. The assumption that if you question the amount of unnecessary checks must mean you don't mind people dying in your employ was shocking. The citing of a company that breached the rules or an employee who died due to neglect is IMO no different to saying because a Muslim killed people so should assume all Muslims are like that. I know how difficult it is to assess everything from what is safe to what constitutes reasonable access for the disabled. I have been told conflicting things by various government officials who also struggle to interpret the word reasonable. I'll leave it there.
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Post by Orac on May 9, 2024 7:38:25 GMT
According to the likes of the Daily Mail. But do you have any sources of repute for that? There's plenty out there. I get 3 or 4 emails every month warning me I could be breeching some or other regulation and that I should send staff on one or other course. Whether you take any notice depends on your own knowledge and nervousness. Its easier now the company is bigger and has in house specialists, but when the company was growing it took up a lot of my time. A complete diagnosis is complex - i think in earlier days it would have been stopped by public ridicule. However, nowadays people seem to be much more cowed and careful.. It is one of many situations in the current landscape in which something that nobody wants or needs seems to have to be endured by everyone (at cost). Perhaps it is time for government intervention - the government should simplify employer liability for things like office spaces and issue literature that can be read an understood in about an hour?
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Post by Zany on May 9, 2024 8:17:43 GMT
There's plenty out there. I get 3 or 4 emails every month warning me I could be breeching some or other regulation and that I should send staff on one or other course. Whether you take any notice depends on your own knowledge and nervousness. Its easier now the company is bigger and has in house specialists, but when the company was growing it took up a lot of my time. A complete diagnosis is complex - i think in earlier days it would have been stopped by public ridicule. However, nowadays people seem to be much more cowed and careful.. It is one of many situations in the current landscape in which something that nobody wants or needs seems to have to be endured by everyone (at cost). Perhaps it is time for government intervention - the government should simplify employer liability for things like office spaces and issue literature that can be read an understood in about an hour? Its difficult Fire regulation used to be a set of rules, but this lead to some premises finding it impossible to meet them. Now its much more vague, but that leaves it open to interpretation. Most of the time its just easier to spend the money and do as is "suggested" by example. At one site where there are two fire escapes, one fire officer said we should have signs showing people that, and pointing both ways to the fire exits. The next told us that in a panic situation this would be confusing and we should take them down. So we had removeable signs made so we could replace and remove according to instruction. One government official told us our accident book was suspicious as nothing was recorded and we should record even minor grazes to show it was being filled in. The next told us it was a complete waste of her time reading through pages of Man bumped head, no action taken. Child tripped, cool bag applied to knee. (Incidentally in 17 years of trading we have had approx 860,000 visitors and nothing more serious than a broken wrist. And no incidents among staff at all. I'm just not evil enough. Its an endless round of people justifying their existence. They are not all bad we have some very helpful ones who give good advice, we have even been approached by ROSPA to help them write the rules after I met a safety officer who liked our methodology. Then you have crazy stuff like the new member of staff who worked for 3 weeks then disappeared, declined all calls and didn't answer emails. Who is still apparently according to advice I have from ACAS entitled to a weeks notice with pay and holiday. Mad but easier to pay it than fight. Pity the poor workers and their evil bosses.
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Post by dappy on May 9, 2024 8:36:22 GMT
Zany, I am content to let others judge on the substance of our conversation yesterday. Not sure it would be beneficial to rake over the coals now.
What I do regret is not walking away earlier when it was clear that the prospect of productive conversation had gone. While I am passionate about safety at work, I apologize for that. Yesterday was a bit of a throwback to the old forum. Not what I would like to see here.
I wish you and your business all success in the future.
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Post by Zany on May 9, 2024 9:04:28 GMT
Zany, I am content to let others judge on the substance of our conversation yesterday. Not sure it would be beneficial to rake over the coals now. What I do regret is not walking away earlier when it was clear that the prospect of productive conversation had gone. While I am passionate about safety at work, I apologize for that. Yesterday was a bit of a throwback to the old forum. Not what I would like to see here. I wish you and your business all success in the future. I couldn't care about safety. A few workers dying, that's just life. A child burning to death because I cut a few corners, Well its good for profit, aint it.
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