|
Post by Zany on Apr 19, 2024 7:40:24 GMT
To have "competition" in which prices are lowered, there first has to be an excess of product - create a Buyer's Market. In housing, the opposite is true. (I've been in Cardiff and Swansea this week - the rental markets for young people and low earners are brutal there, too. My recent guest was over from Barcelona, where she lives in a spacious flat in the centre, affordable only because of mandated and enforced rent controls..) One of the contributory factors in our woeful housing issues has to be that so much stock has been taken out of the low rent/social rental market by boomers looking to build their retirement portfolio. I'm a fan of the Free Market in many respects, but when it comes to the necessities of life, it can't really be trusted to do the right thing, and it's time for the legislators to step up. Yes, my proposal for the new Labour government is build council houses. Borrow money invest in property. Its self funding and some. My opinion is the reason for building shortages is an over zealous self important planning office. Encouraged by the big land owners who want land prices kept high. Government needs to stop representing them and start representing the voters who need homes. One final thing. People are sold the idea of saving the greenbelt as beautiful England. But greenbelt is this: and this:
|
|
|
Post by walterpaisley on Apr 19, 2024 8:06:54 GMT
I have few problems with the idea of building on "greenbelt". Much of the opposition (certainly in my neck of the woods, where there have been a number of such campaigns of late) is just nimbyism.
As for planning law - there have been a number of changes in recent years, and I can't see there being any more movement on that front anytime soon.
My own house is "Grade 2*". I'm in a UNESCO world heritage site, along with many other houses and industrial buildings in the town, and that weird state of affairs also leads to some strange anomalies. In short, a huge old mill building can be left half empty and (literally, in a couple of cases) rotting - but if someone wishes to convert it to flats, that's a no-no.
Meanwhile, there's no restriction at all on turning house into holiday rentals in a place where young people are expected to pay (not that they can, of course..) upwards of £800pm for a small flat. (A neighbour sits on the board of a local almhouse trust. They currently have a project - with finance in place - to build a dozen or so homes aimed at low earners. They cannot find a building plot in town : such sites are either within the Heritage Site control zone, or have been sitting there empty for years - land banked by big developers.)
|
|
|
Post by dappy on Apr 19, 2024 9:18:21 GMT
This has the potential of turning into a multifaceted conversation about should and if so how do we improve the lot of those people in our society who are on the lowest pay.
I recognise the problem SRB has raised but it is a complicated one. SRB is on a lower income supplemented by the state and believes he is trapped with little incentive or opportunity to work his way to a better standard of living, if I understand him correctly. There is perhaps a case for a substantial increase in the minimum wage to reduce or eliminate the need for the state to top up incomes via UC. This is not an easy option though. That would, I imagine, substantially increase for example Zany's cost base in his business and the result surely is he would have to put up his prices to his customers (some of whom will be the people we have just increased salary to) and would probably have to similarly raise other workers wages to maintain differentials further increasing cost pressures and hence price he has to charge. As costs of employing people rises, there would be increased pressure on Zany to seek ways to automate or otherwise reduce his employment headcount. Doing this may not be the interests of those we have tried to help.
There is an argument perhaps to replace UC with a state funded universal basic income payable to everyone but it is hard to see how this would be funded.
SRB will not like this but the purpose of benefits is to act as a safety net rather than as a right. SRB complains that his incentives to work are reduced as his net income combination of benefit and work income only increases marginally when he works more so why bother. But it could be argued that he should as much as possible stand on his own two feet and if he is capable of working more, he should be expected even forced to do so rather than expect taxpayers to fund him via benefits. In theory perhaps the withdrawal rate of UC should be 100% rather than 55% of income earned.
Its complicated hence why I suspect this issue falls mostly into the "too difficult" box and nothing happens.
In terms of rent controls, this feels like a classic case of "I wouldn't have started from here". There is no golden rule that says people have to invest in the property market. They only do so if they believe they will get a good return on their investment. Lets say hypothetically that market rent on a suitable property is currently £10,000 per annum. An investor looking for a 5% return may buy that property for £200,000. If we now introduce rent controls limiting that rent to £5000 per annum, the price an investor would be prepared to pay for that property would fall to £100,000. That may be fine for some but for people currently owning property that fall in value would be catastrophic. That would then feed into severe financial difficulty for financial institutions who lend to the property market and from there into the economy full stop. Its a policy that would be fantastically difficult to introduce from where we are now even in a dictatorship. In a democracy it would almost certainly be impossible to do.
As for housebuilding and planning. Well local councils simply represent (at least in theory) their local community. That community should have protection surely from well financed developers trying to impose unwanted development on their community. Again trying to find the right balance here is incredibly difficult.
|
|
|
Post by walterpaisley on Apr 19, 2024 10:07:23 GMT
SRB will not like this but the purpose of benefits is to act as a safety net rather than as a right. SRB complains that his incentives to work are reduced as his net income combination of benefit and work income only increases marginally when he works more so why bother. While I'm pretty much a fiscal conservative, in this respect I'm just the opposite. I've long believed that it's more important to be active than just laying in bed and only getting up for Homes Under the Hammer and a few rounds of Call of Duty. There are loads of people I come into contact with who do many hours of volunteering work every week - from working the phone lines for Samaritans, etc, to helping out at the local Refugee Centre, and cooking at a local lunch club. These folk are not only providing real worth to society, they're also saving the public purse a few quid, and (in kind..) more than repaying the paltry amount of benefits they receive. Also, in terms of their own mental health, they're engaged with others, problem solving, and developing new skills. (My old friend Z*** - a refugee himself - spent years volunteering for everything from food kitchens and a furniture project to music projects and interview translating for the Police and NHS - all "underwritten" by the taxpayer. It led to the job he still does (and a mention in the Queen's Birthday Honours..). He puts the likes of me to shame.)
|
|
|
Post by Orac on Apr 20, 2024 7:27:09 GMT
SRB will not like this but the purpose of benefits is to act as a safety net rather than as a right. SRB complains that his incentives to work are reduced as his net income combination of benefit and work income only increases marginally when he works more so why bother. While I'm pretty much a fiscal conservative, in this respect I'm just the opposite. I've long believed that it's more important to be active than just laying in bed and only getting up for Homes Under the Hammer and a few rounds of Call of Duty. There are loads of people I come into contact with who do many hours of volunteering work every week - from working the phone lines for Samaritans, etc, to helping out at the local Refugee Centre, and cooking at a local lunch club. These folk are not only providing real worth to society, they're also saving the public purse a few quid, and (in kind..) more than repaying the paltry amount of benefits they receive. Also, in terms of their own mental health, they're engaged with others, problem solving, and developing new skills. (My old friend Z*** - a refugee himself - spent years volunteering for everything from food kitchens and a furniture project to music projects and interview translating for the Police and NHS - all "underwritten" by the taxpayer. It led to the job he still does (and a mention in the Queen's Birthday Honours..). He puts the likes of me to shame.) Here we run straight into the concept of value. Work is not valuable because it is difficult / hard, it is valuable because somebody wants to pay for it to be performed. I wonder how you keen you would be for the BNP to be paid with public money to do their version of 'volunteer work' Here you seem to be looking for a way to collect payment from people for doing something, without those people having the option to say 'no thanks'.
|
|
|
Post by Zany on Apr 20, 2024 7:35:03 GMT
SRB will not like this but the purpose of benefits is to act as a safety net rather than as a right. SRB complains that his incentives to work are reduced as his net income combination of benefit and work income only increases marginally when he works more so why bother. While I'm pretty much a fiscal conservative, in this respect I'm just the opposite. I've long believed that it's more important to be active than just laying in bed and only getting up for Homes Under the Hammer and a few rounds of Call of Duty. There are loads of people I come into contact with who do many hours of volunteering work every week - from working the phone lines for Samaritans, etc, to helping out at the local Refugee Centre, and cooking at a local lunch club. These folk are not only providing real worth to society, they're also saving the public purse a few quid, and (in kind..) more than repaying the paltry amount of benefits they receive. Also, in terms of their own mental health, they're engaged with others, problem solving, and developing new skills. (My old friend Z*** - a refugee himself - spent years volunteering for everything from food kitchens and a furniture project to music projects and interview translating for the Police and NHS - all "underwritten" by the taxpayer. It led to the job he still does (and a mention in the Queen's Birthday Honours..). He puts the likes of me to shame.) That's lovely but without those actually working there would be no benefits for Z*** or money for the Samaritans. You raise an interesting point by accident. Would you approve of people working for their benefits? Doing all these wonderful things in return for there few quid.
|
|
|
Post by Orac on Apr 20, 2024 7:41:00 GMT
While I'm pretty much a fiscal conservative, in this respect I'm just the opposite. I've long believed that it's more important to be active than just laying in bed and only getting up for Homes Under the Hammer and a few rounds of Call of Duty. There are loads of people I come into contact with who do many hours of volunteering work every week - from working the phone lines for Samaritans, etc, to helping out at the local Refugee Centre, and cooking at a local lunch club. These folk are not only providing real worth to society, they're also saving the public purse a few quid, and (in kind..) more than repaying the paltry amount of benefits they receive. Also, in terms of their own mental health, they're engaged with others, problem solving, and developing new skills. (My old friend Z*** - a refugee himself - spent years volunteering for everything from food kitchens and a furniture project to music projects and interview translating for the Police and NHS - all "underwritten" by the taxpayer. It led to the job he still does (and a mention in the Queen's Birthday Honours..). He puts the likes of me to shame.) That's lovely but without those actually working there would be no benefits for Z*** or money for the Samaritans. You raise an interesting point by accident. Would you approve of people working for their benefits? Doing all these wonderful things in return for there few quid. Then the problem becomes choosing uncontroversial work that everyone agrees needs to be done (is of value) and.. ...what to do with those who refuse? Our Star Trek inspired 'liberal values' wont allow significant consequences / restrictions.
|
|
|
Post by walterpaisley on Apr 20, 2024 7:44:34 GMT
Here you seem to be looking for a way to collect payment from people for doing something, without those people having the option to say 'no thanks'. "Tax" in other words. That's how it works. Everyone pays into the pot, and there are always some things (on an individual level) that some resent footing the bill for (personally, the royal family, religion, nukes, etc). But we pay up, all the same, because it's a collective thing. Would you approve of people working for their benefits? Doing all these wonderful things in return for there few quid. Certainly worth looking into, provided that Minimum Wage Rates and "employment" protections still apply, and such schemes aren't used to put others out of a job.
|
|
|
Post by Orac on Apr 20, 2024 7:56:42 GMT
Here you seem to be looking for a way to collect payment from people for doing something, without those people having the option to say 'no thanks'. "Tax" in other words. That's how it works. Everyone pays into the pot, and there are always some things (on an individual level) that some resent footing the bill for (personally, the royal family, religion, nukes, etc). But we pay up, all the same, because it's a collective thing. Sure - the whole thing is intrinsically dodgy and corruptible. Historically governments formed out of the common good of security and massive extensions to this have become unstable. Extending the deal, so armies of of citizens can make up their idea of 'useful work' and receive forced payments from everyone else to do it, sounds to me like a trip into totalitarian enforcement or a short cul-de-sac
|
|
|
Post by Zany on Apr 20, 2024 7:58:35 GMT
Here you seem to be looking for a way to collect payment from people for doing something, without those people having the option to say 'no thanks'. "Tax" in other words. That's how it works. Everyone pays into the pot, and there are always some things (on an individual level) that some resent footing the bill for (personally, the royal family, religion, nukes, etc). But we pay up, all the same, because it's a collective thing. Would you approve of people working for their benefits? Doing all these wonderful things in return for there few quid. Certainly worth looking into, provided that Minimum Wage Rates and "employment" protections still apply, and such schemes aren't used to put others out of a job. Yes to min wage, but also time off for job hunting education etc. I see no reason why these could not include work currently carried out by paid workers. In private industry there is no job or wage protection so I see no reason why it should exist in the public sector.
|
|
Steve
Hero Protagonist
Posts: 3,633
|
Post by Steve on Apr 24, 2024 8:27:23 GMT
Low earners are being massively disincentivised from working longer and putting in more hours by a seriously disincentivising benefits trap. Universal Credit is cut by 55p for every £1 of take home pay. . . Ridiculous isn't it that the poorest pay one of the highest marginal rates of tax. But cutting that to a sensible level isn't the way to end the benefits trap, we have to change the much wider tax portfolio so businesses are incentivised to create decently paid jobs. Right now we do 100% the opposite and guess what we have 1.5 million in the economic and social misery of unemployment.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2024 14:32:03 GMT
Low earners are being massively disincentivised from working longer and putting in more hours by a seriously disincentivising benefits trap. Universal Credit is cut by 55p for every £1 of take home pay. . . Ridiculous isn't it that the poorest pay one of the highest marginal rates of tax. But cutting that to a sensible level isn't the way to end the benefits trap, we have to change the much wider tax portfolio so businesses are incentivised to create decently paid jobs. Right now we do 100% the opposite and guess what we have 1.5 million in the economic and social misery of unemployment. There is much truth to what you say, though the sector in which I work - retail - would have to charge people one hell of a lot more for food to pay us enough to break us free of the benefits trap. This would make food very expensive for everyone. And some of what retail workers would gain in extra pay would be used up on their own increased food costs. Some sectors of the economy cannot - and never have been able to - afford high rates of pay. Yet the people working in these sectors need to be able to survive. For them letting them keep more of what they earn by far less stringent UC clawback rates is the only option really. Of course we also need to do something to reduce housing costs for these people too, because high rents trap them all the more deeply into a benefits trap.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2024 14:39:22 GMT
"Tax" in other words. That's how it works. Everyone pays into the pot, and there are always some things (on an individual level) that some resent footing the bill for (personally, the royal family, religion, nukes, etc). But we pay up, all the same, because it's a collective thing. Certainly worth looking into, provided that Minimum Wage Rates and "employment" protections still apply, and such schemes aren't used to put others out of a job. Yes to min wage, but also time off for job hunting education etc. I see no reason why these could not include work currently carried out by paid workers. In private industry there is no job or wage protection so I see no reason why it should exist in the public sector. I do not agree with laying off workers so welfare claimants can do their jobs instead in return for benefits. You could end up with the ludicrous situation where a road sweeper loses his job so welfare claimants can do it instead, only for the now unemployed roadsweeper to still end up sweeping the roads for his benefits instead of for the living wage he was doing it for. This would be tantamount to a form of slave labour. If people are going to be expected to work for their benefits, have them do stuff that people are not already being paid to do. Here in the southwest for example they could collect litter from our numerous beaches, which councils very seldom do. In private industry people tend not to have their jobs replaced by welfare claimants doing the work for free instead. If that were to happen there would be outrage. Your willingness to get welfare claimants to do the work that workers are currently paid to do, so that the workers end up on the dole, is frankly disgusting.
|
|
|
Post by Zany on Apr 24, 2024 16:16:45 GMT
Low earners are being massively disincentivised from working longer and putting in more hours by a seriously disincentivising benefits trap. Universal Credit is cut by 55p for every £1 of take home pay. . . Ridiculous isn't it that the poorest pay one of the highest marginal rates of tax. But cutting that to a sensible level isn't the way to end the benefits trap, we have to change the much wider tax portfolio so businesses are incentivised to create decently paid jobs. Right now we do 100% the opposite and guess what we have 1.5 million in the economic and social misery of unemployment. Its an interesting point. VAT is charged at the same rate whether your takings are for passing a product on or selling a service (Labour) But when you sell labour you don't get to claim VAT against it. Buy £100,000 of goods and sell it to the public for £120,000 and pay £7,300 to HMRC Buy £100,000 of labour and sell it to the public for £120,000 and pay £14,400 to HMRC Then there's living wage. Excellent idea, the government can give millions away without it costing them a penny, more every year. Hey look at us we're such good guys and so generous. How about if we stop in work benefits and let the market decide pay? Would employers pay more, or would thousands of jobs disappear.
|
|
Steve
Hero Protagonist
Posts: 3,633
|
Post by Steve on Apr 24, 2024 21:30:20 GMT
Ridiculous isn't it that the poorest pay one of the highest marginal rates of tax. But cutting that to a sensible level isn't the way to end the benefits trap, we have to change the much wider tax portfolio so businesses are incentivised to create decently paid jobs. Right now we do 100% the opposite and guess what we have 1.5 million in the economic and social misery of unemployment. Its an interesting point. VAT is charged at the same rate whether your takings are for passing a product on or selling a service (Labour) But when you sell labour you don't get to claim VAT against it. Buy £100,000 of goods and sell it to the public for £120,000 and pay £7,300 to HMRC Buy £100,000 of labour and sell it to the public for £120,000 and pay £14,400 to HMRC Then there's living wage. Excellent idea, the government can give millions away without it costing them a penny, more every year. Hey look at us we're such good guys and so generous. How about if we stop in work benefits and let the market decide pay? Would employers pay more, or would thousands of jobs disappear. I'd increase VAT, abandon the Living Wage BUT BUT kill off employers NI and make the in work benefits fair.Low VAT is a subsidy for companies that import rather than create UK jobs. And we need more UK jobs (a) to reduce the misery of unemployment and (b) let market forces drive up the lower quartile salaries. Oh and tie MPs wages to true average wages (total wages divided by size of working age population) then Tories would start to care about the lower quartile and stop those lies pretending 5% unemployed is full employment. It isn't.
|
|